[Phil]

mikeh, on Apr 14 2010, 01:34 PM, said:

Do you think partner should make a responsive double with say xxx AQJx x Jxxxx?

Careful construction I think - with the heart suited loaded, and a stiff diamond. Even then, partner is passing 3N, so why is this hand a problem?

Quote

And do you think he needs more than 6 hearts to pull 3N? with say xxx QJ9xxx x Jxx?

Sure - but is any game playable here?

Quote

The hand is a nightmare...I have zero idea what is best....

Preempts work!

[Phil]

Rob F, on Apr 14 2010, 01:55 PM, said:

Well they are NV vs V, and I've seen my share of joker 2 card raises in that situation. Not super likely, but not out of the question.

Or 5 diamonds in RHO. But neither is particularly likely given we have AKxx.

[Jlall]

3N w/e

[mikeh]

Phil, on Apr 14 2010, 02:35 PM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 14 2010, 01:34 PM, said:

Do you think partner should make a responsive double with say xxx AQJx x Jxxxx?

Careful construction I think - with the heart suited loaded, and a stiff diamond. Even then, partner is passing 3N, so why is this hand a problem?

lol...my careful construction took maybe 4 seconds, and only because i am a slow typer. And the point was merely to rebut your implied assertion that 3♥ showed 5+....heck, it doesn't show as much as Qxxx.

[whereagles]

mikeh, on Apr 14 2010, 06:28 PM, said:

That isn't an ELC situation.

Depends on what you call "ELC".

In any case, doubling + pulling hearts to spades is perfectly correct technically. Have a look at page 206 of Robson/Segal.

[gwnn]

whereagles: it is not "perfectly correct technically". In Robson Segal all example hands where you double and bid a new suit you have 5 in that suit and 4 in the "other" suit. Last time I called this to your attention you said that that particular 5-4 hand looks like 4-5...

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=31583

edit... I can't sleep so I looked it up specifically:

They do not have this exact auction but:

2♠-x-p-3♦
p-3♥

"should show a five card suit"

3♦-x-p-3♥
p-4♣

"should be a hand like KQTx Ax x AKJxxx" i.e. he doesn't pull to spades

1♠-x-p-2♦
p-2♥

1534 1525 or 2524

When they discuss what hand you need to pull

3♦-x-p-3♥ to 3♠, they show two hands that are two weak and both have 5 spades and 4 clubs.

I count 8 different sequences where you double and pull your partner's bid to another suit which they consider non-GOSH and in none of the cases do they have an example hand with less than 5 in the suit they pull to (some sequences have more than 1 example)...

I think that, while it is nowhere written as an explicit rule, it is safe to say that Robson and Segal do not advocate doubling and pulling hearts to spades with less than 5 spades.

This post has been edited by gwnn: 2010-April-14, 20:45

[pirate22]

Defence 2 opps weak 2's--one should have an agreed system with Partner.

Against any weak 2 major-bid your best minor( it can be a 3 card suit) but p knows you have min 4 cards in other major and an opening hand.
If you have both minors bid 2n/t (P knows u have no major)again an opening hand.
Against 2d openers treat them as 1's and x for take out.
agree with the shown example the x hopes, p will not have a rush of blood and jump in hts-if they do--bid clubs. if p just bids 1/2 hts-i rebid n/t's

One may ask what if you have 5/6 of a major and few points or even a lot of points,if weak just bid 2h/2s. if strong use the best minor feature.
And if one has a long minor again strong or weak,use limit bid for the hand-- in the minor.
by what action the second in hand adopts tells p whats going on.
the same applies if it gets round to p, now 3rd in hand...agreed one can be bounced
if 2nd position passes and other opp muddies the waters,with a raise of some description. all is not lost BEWARE and on guard if opps are non and you ARE:)
in this situ opps use that they may have only a 5 card suit to open 2d.
regards

One has to have an system rather than none

[cloa513]

2♠ denies interest in other major. The hand is not powerful as to run 9/8 tricks. Double raise to game with 4 spade would be OK if partner raises to 3 Spades bid 3NT.

[Fluffy]

with all those hearts around I am a passer, I will get to act later.

EDIT: before the toona constructs a deal that is passed out, I think it is just so likelly that the auction won't die in 2♦.

[gwnn]

I am willing to bet a lot of money that if we give this to 4 gibs and they play 1000000 deals, 50+% will be passed out.

[cherdanno]

Fluffy, on Apr 15 2010, 05:57 AM, said:

with all those hearts around I am a passer, I will get to act later.

EDIT: before the toona constructs a deal that is passed out, I think it is just so likelly that the auction won't die in 2♦.

Huh? We have 19 hcp. Give everyone else 7, and I don't see anyone bidding. Who do you expect to bid hearts?

[gwnn]

you're ruining my secret plan to undeserved wealth and glory.

[whereagles]

gwnn, on Apr 15 2010, 12:08 AM, said:

I think that, while it is nowhere written as an explicit rule, it is safe to say that Robson and Segal do not advocate doubling and pulling hearts to spades with less than 5 spades.

Ok. However, doing so with 5-4 or 4-5 indisciminately does go in the direction they advocate, which is "keep your auction flexible after a pree".

The principle is very simple: double + pull = tolerance for unbid suits (be it 4 or 5 cards). I call this the ELC principle. Others would prefer to give it another name. Sometimes you'll double with a GOSH, but that's another story.

I'm guessing they didn't write down any strict rule regarding how many cards you have in the suit you pull onto because dealing with preempts is a matter of judgement and sometimes you'll just have to make-do with 4 cards. Usually you'll have 5, but this particular hand is so strong it is perfectly viable to do it on 4.

Obviously, it's also good judgement not to pull to a 4 card spade if you have a nice 6m-4♠. As it is to pull, say,

(3♦) dbl (pass) 3♥

to 3♠ on

AKQx
x
Axx
QJxxx

[gwnn]

I don't think it is good judgement at all to double with that hand in the first place. Also there are no examples at all in R/S where you have less than 2 cards in an unbid suit.

[whereagles]

gwnn, on Apr 15 2010, 01:40 PM, said:

I don't think it is good judgement at all to double with that hand in the first place. Also there are no examples at all in R/S where you have less than 2 cards in an unbid suit.

I'm not sure if you can deduce from there that you should not double with less than 2 cards in an unbid suit, even playing ELC.

[gwnn]

I can't deduce it but it is a strong indication. Similarly with the other situation, they show example hands for 8 different auctions and in none do they have a singleton in an unbid suit and in none do they pull to a 4 card suit. So I don't think you can claim that what you're advocating is in the book.

[pooltuna]

thebiker, on Apr 14 2010, 07:13 AM, said:

IMP Vul versus NVul

Dealer opens 2D weak

Your hand
♠KT9x
♥-
♦AKxx
♣AKQxx

Your move ?

regards

thebiker

Brian Keable

The truth is there is no good answer and consequently the * players are forbidden to take a shot otherwise maybe jlall, Fred, Pavlicek and their ilk would take a shot. Kfay is not aware that he is forbidden to answer The ugly choices (maybe best to say the only choices) look to be pass (ugh! you have to put up with my commentary), double (OMG where are my ♥), 2NT (I repeat, OMG where are my ♥), 3♣ (so what if I have an extra A and Q), 3♦ (partner won't pass this, 6♥ partner why on earth did you bid that) and the most beautiful winner is X (marks the spot where I get shot? )

[WellSpyder]

pooltuna, on Apr 15 2010, 10:21 AM, said:

  The ugly choices (maybe best to say the only choices) look to be pass (ugh! you have to put up with my commentary), double (OMG where are my ♥), 2NT (I repeat, OMG where are my ♥), 3♣ (so what if I have an extra A and Q), 3♦ (partner won't pass this, 6♥ partner why on earth did you bid that) and the most beautiful winner is X (marks the spot where I get shot?  )

... and 3NT

[Phil]

Dying to see the hand.

Not that it matters of course....

[JanM]

I gave this hand to Chip and he said "you have to figure that if you play enough hands there will be some impossible ones after a preempt." But then he suggested something no one has advocated - 4♣, showing 5-5 in clubs and a Major. Overstates the spades, of course, but at least it gets across that this is a 2-suited hand. Means we won't be able to play 3NT, but it's not going to be easy to get to 3NT, and will be pretty impossible to get there and know it's right.