[Fluffy]

this weekend, this hand happened preciselly with 3 players who play as partners with each other playing XYZ and transfer walsh at the table.

♠KJxx
♥KJ
♦AKQxxx
♣x


1♣-1♦
1NT

EDIT: (In reality bid wasn't 1♦ but 1♠= diamonds or balanced but its almost the same)

At the table the palyer bid 2♦, but I pointed out that maybe 2♠ is better, it happened that the 3 of us had different views on the differences and generated some discussion.


My father thought that 2♠ must pinpoint heart shortness
Lantaron said that 2♠ shows a pure 2 suiter with concentrated honnors, while 2♦ is bid when other strains are likelly.
I though 2♠ showed 6-4

what do you think?

[Codo]

Don't argue with your dad. You cannot win.

But I would agree with you, 2 ♠ shows 6/4...

[Phil]

I play 2♠ simply shows 5+♦ / 4+♠ and a GF. Otherwise, 2♦ can (should IMO) be a balanced hand.

[ArtK78]

Is this the SAYC and 2/1 and Transfer Walsh Discussion Forum?

[Fluffy]

ArtK78, on Apr 14 2010, 11:40 AM, said:

Is this the SAYC and 2/1 and Transfer Walsh Discussion Forum?

oops, sorry, think of this as 1♣-1♦-1NT sequence, that was what I originally wanted to discuss anyway, just switched my mind during posting.

[andy_h]

Phil, on Apr 14 2010, 08:27 PM, said:

I play 2♠ simply shows 5+♦ / 4+♠ and a GF. Otherwise, 2♦ can (should IMO) be a balanced hand.

I agree with this. Then you can find out about minor suit fits and possibly opener's shortness if he was forced to bid 1NT with off-shape hands. Just bid 2♠ to pattern out - I don't necessarily see why this needs to promise heart shortness. For all I know, opener could be 4=4=3=2 and responder can have a club shortness?

[Phil]

Thought about this one more last night.

Fluffy - can you clarify what these calls mean in your system:

1♣ - 1N
1♣ - 2N
1♣ - 3N
1♣ - 2♦?

-----------------

I'm not sure that XYZ is a great idea in this sequence anyway, but if you choose to play it, you might as well get some mileage out of it, instead of simply using it to sign off in diamonds, or to show a GF hand in diamonds. You have such a big advantage here - pairs that play a weak NT or pairs that are starting 1 minor - 3N are pretty much relegated to playing 3N, but you can intelligently look for a 4-3 major fit, a hidden 5-4 or even 5-5 diamond fit, or to simply avoid a bad 3N when we are wide open in a suit.

I can even see 2♣ as not XYZ but a GF relay.

Still feel strongly that 2M is simply a natural reverse.

Auctions like 1♣ - 1♠ - 1N - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2M are somewhat obscure too - perhaps a raise to 2N with a concentration of values?

[Fluffy]

1♣ - 1N 10-11 balanced
1♣ - 2N mixed club raise
1♣ - 3N non existant
1♣ - 2♦ very weak in a major

But I was trying to be more general, not specific on my system, when should you use 2♦ vs just show the reverse. No need to play transfer walsh.



A similar thing is 1♦-1M-1NT-2NT or bid 2♣ and then later 2NT.

we have agreed that after 1♦-1M-1NT, direct 2NT invite shows typical 11 balanced, while using 2♣ before bidding 2NT shows 4 diamonds.

[Phil]

Quote

1♣ - 1N 10-11 balanced

Hope you played this - you might give 1♣ - 1♠ - 1N - 2N and 2♣ - 2♦ - 2N some thought.

Quote

1♣ - 2N mixed club raise

I will give you an unsolicited "why would you play this"? You wrong side the NT, and you don't give responder an option of 2N or 3♣

Quote

1♣ - 3N non existant

I would suggest a preemptive raise to 4m, but keeping it in 3N in case Opener has a bid balanced hand.

Quote

1♣ - 2♦ very weak in a major

Cool - nice treatment. XYZ should cater to all of your ranges of single suited diamond hands, but obviously you need it.

[jdonn]

It's hard to say because there are so many better things you could play on this auction. For example something like:
2♣: Relay to 2♦, either weak and about to pass or GF and about to do anything natural.
2♦/2♥/2♠/2NT: Natural and invitational.

And sorry fluffy but I really hate the whole system. Ok maybe you don't care which is fair enough.

Anyway to the original problem I believe you should bid 2♠. The last thing you want is to bid 2♦ and see partner waste a level of bidding for you with 2NT or 3♣, you might as well describe something important now instead. Your father's interpretation seems..... really random?

[Fluffy]

you are going too deep into the system, and I tried to keep it general.

the problem is very easy: if you play XYZ with a partner and it starts 1♣-1♦-1NT when do you bid 2M?

so far everyone that answered directly said that 2♦ cannot have 5♦+4M

[Fluffy]

[quote name='Phil' date='Apr 14 2010, 03:56 PM'] 1[cl] - 2[di] very weak in a major[/QUOTE]

Cool - nice treatment. XYZ should cater to all of your ranges of single suited diamond hands, but obviously you need it. [/quote]
I just remembered, 2[di] has a "strong" variant: invitational with both minors

about the 1[cl]-1[sp] then invite in NT, so far our agreement is: I forgot again I could had bid 1NT, since we have switched to it kind of recently (we used it as mixed raise for clubs, but dropped it due to wrongsiding 1NT, now we tend to bid 1[sp] and I think we never bid 2NT yet).

[mike777]

Fluffy, on Apr 14 2010, 04:22 PM, said:

you are going too deep into the system, and I tried to keep it general.

the problem is very easy: if you play XYZ with a partner and it starts 1♣-1♦-1NT when do you bid 2M?

so far everyone that answered directly said that 2♦ cannot have 5♦+4M

correct........bid 2s with long d and 4 card spade suit and game force.



1c=1d
1nt=2s


1c=1d(walsh style)
1nt=2d(art gf)

now you deny a 4card major, yes.

that means with exactly 4d and 4s and game force you must start with 1s.

1c=1s(walsh)
1nt=2d(artificial gf)

Yes playing Walsh means finding diamonds could be tough.

[Free]

Fluffy, on Apr 14 2010, 10:22 PM, said:

you are going too deep into the system, and I tried to keep it general.

the problem is very easy: if you play XYZ with a partner and it starts 1♣-1♦-1NT when do you bid 2M?

so far everyone that answered directly said that 2♦ cannot have 5♦+4M

I also play this way: 2M shows 4M and 5+♦, 2♦ denies this hand type.

[Heidar]

Gonna suggest a widely known convention used in Iceland but I haven't been able to find it anywhere else. It's not the same as NMF or Checkback, reversed or whatnot.

1x - 1x
1NT does not deny 4-card M
followups:
1x - 1x
1NT - 2C = puppet to 2D to signoff in 2D or 3C, or otherwise show various weak/invitational hands with at least 1 4-card major
- 2D = Artificial GF, opener starts bidding cheapest 4-card suit
- 2M = 4-6 invitational value (limiting the 2C relay to 4-5)
- 3C = 2 suiter, inv

The name we use for this convention is called Tvíhleypan (doubble-barreled gun).

[mike777]

hate it but ok