[frouu]

1♠-p-4♠-X
2♠-p-4♠-X
3♠-p-4♠-X
4♠-X

Standard is all of these doubles are "takeout doubles", is that right?

I had read somewhere that partner of the doubler should be more cautious when taking out this double.
For example, if you have xxx Jxxx xxx xxx, do you take out the double and bid 5♥?
Or, if you have xxx Kxx Jxx xxxx, do you take out the double and bid 5♣?

Can you clarify how to respond to this double, when to sit, how vulnerability affects the decision, etc?

Thanks in advance.

[TylerE]

Standard around here is that none of these are takeout. Typically 4N is the takeout over 4♠.

[frouu]

My question arose after the recent topic:
http://forums.bridge...showtopic=38459

[MinorKid]

IMO x of 4♠ is neagtive double, it can be passed but suggest to be taken-out.

On the first oppotunity The x means IMO:
short of spade
rel. balance on other suits.
and
Strengh to 5-level with expected,average partner's strength.

Partner just have to decide his own.

4NT over 4♠:any two suiter.
Partner bids cheapest avaliable suit.

[rogerclee]

First: all of these are all takeout doubles. That said, partner is doubling on a wide variety of hands; you should basically never pull with 4333 shape, usually pull with 5-5 shape, often pull with a 6 card suit or 5-4 shape, and everything in between is a matter of judgment, depending on your spades, strength, honor distribution, and vulnerability. Also pulling on the auction 1S P 4S X is not the same as pulling on the auction 4S X.

Another myth among bridge players is that you can play double of 4S is penalty because 4N can be used for takeout. This is just wrong, because 4N precludes the ability to defend 4Sx; it's much worse to bid 4N for takeout than it is to double for takeout. 4N shows a two suiter, a different handtype that can't really double, because it doesn't have support for all the unbid suits.

There is a lot to be written about this subject (high level competitive decisions) and it is a really hard topic, both because it is incredibly difficult (even for world class players) and because it is frustratingly random.

[jdonn]

All takeout, and partner should never bid a suit like Jxxx on the 5 level there.

[EricK]

Whatever "standard" happens to be in your area, these should all be take out.

The general idea in responding is to only bid if you feel there is a chance of making the contract - which usually means you have quite a bit of shape. Balanced hands, including weak balanced hands, should pass. 4 tricks in defense is a much more attainable target than 11 as declarer. If on one of those hands it turns out that they can make 4♠x, then the chances are you were going for even more at the 5 level.

[the hog]

TylerE, on Apr 9 2010, 11:58 AM, said:

Standard around here is that none of these are takeout. Typically 4N is the takeout over 4♠.

I think it is standard that around here ALL of these are for takeout. Pretty much everyone I know plays these as t/o and 4NT as a 2 suited t/o

[jjbrr]

+1 takeout. +1 pass with 4333 or 4432. It's much easier to take 4 tricks than 11 with no shape at all.

[Phil]

All takeout, but they do not promise classic takeout 'shape'.

Those that use 4N as a takeout here are probably wearing a mood ring and stroking their pet rock.

[aguahombre]

Phil, on Apr 9 2010, 08:43 AM, said:

All takeout, but they do not promise classic takeout 'shape'.

Now we touch on the problem of this whole string and of the previous string started by Jilly.

The term "takeout" is being used by Josh, Roger, Erick, and a cast of many --to describe what really might be called "convertable values" at this high level. "Takeout" is fine when they are speaking to their peers, but confusing to others.

What they say about the double, and when it should be taken out, is the majority position --and, IMHO, the right position. 4NT is available, but is probably best used to show 2 places to play. It should not be described as "takeout", either (Duh, it is already taken out).

The only thing sure is that there is no absolutely "penalty, we gotcha" double. And of course, in order to show a hand which doesn't fall into either the double or the 4NT category, there is always the pass.

[mikeh]

aguahombre, on Apr 9 2010, 10:09 AM, said:

Phil, on Apr 9 2010, 08:43 AM, said:

All takeout, but they do not promise classic takeout 'shape'.

Now we touch on the problem of this whole string and of the previous string started by Jilly.

The term "takeout" is being used by Josh, Roger, Erick, and a cast of many --to describe what really might be called "convertable values" at this high level. "Takeout" is fine when they are speaking to their peers, but confusing to others.

What they say about the double, and when it should be taken out, is the majority position --and, IMHO, the right position. 4NT is available, but is probably best used to show 2 places to play. It should not be described as "takeout", either (Duh, it is already taken out).

The only thing sure is that there is no absolutely "penalty, we gotcha" double. And of course, in order to show a hand which doesn't fall into either the double or the 4NT category, there is always the pass.

Exactly....the problem is that most players tend to think in terms of a double having to be one of takeout or penalty, while in real life, many doubles are neither.

Thus low level doubles in competition are often: I have extras and no clear direction....please do something intelligent'. That something is usually to bid but it can be to pass: so this double is really an 'extra values' double.

And all of the doubles in this thread in essence convey the message: 'I have values and if you have shape we should bid to make or save and if you are balanced or semi-balanced, we should usually defend'

The term convertible values was promoted and maybe invented by Kokish and is a useful desriptor: many high level doubles, altho described by experts as 'takeout' are in fact converible value doubles, which are left in many times.

Beginners learn that one leaves in a takeout double only with surprising trump stacks, but the convertible double is often left in with no trump tricks at all. No wonder people get confused.

[jdonn]

This double is still "takeout"! Maybe that's a bad name because partner won't often take it out, but it means the exact same as any other takeout double, something like "support for the other 3 suits, but the more extra values I have the wider variety of shapes I may have". The meaning of the double doesn't change just because partner's strategy of responding to it changes. There is nothing confusing about calling it a "takeout" double IMO.

[gwnn]

have you not seen 500 days of summer?

there's no need to put labels on it!

[Gerben42]

My opinion is that this dbl should be take out and it's not close. How do you convert a T/O dbl if it's 4NT?!

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Apr 9 2010, 11:28 AM, said:

This double is still "takeout"! Maybe that's a bad name because partner won't often take it out, but it means the exact same as any other takeout double, something like "support for the other 3 suits, but the more extra values I have the wider variety of shapes I may have". The meaning of the double doesn't change just because partner's strategy of responding to it changes. There is nothing confusing about calling it a "takeout" double IMO.

Except that, as Kaplan wrote many times, one should almost always 'take out' a takeout double, and that is almost the opposite of how one treats these 'takeout' doubles...josh, I think that you underestimate the degree of confusion that these treatments cause B/I players.

[jdonn]

Maybe but it's the issues they are confusing. What you call this double should reflect the type of hand it shows, not how the next player responds to it. It's a bit unfortunate that the name reflects the latter.

[aguahombre]

jdonn, on Apr 9 2010, 11:01 AM, said:

Maybe but it's the issues they are confusing. What you call this double should reflect the type of hand it shows, not how the next player responds to it. It's a bit unfortunate that the name reflects the latter.

Which is precisely the reason why it should be referred to as convertible values to the masses.

[jdonn]

aguahombre, on Apr 9 2010, 12:37 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 9 2010, 11:01 AM, said:

Maybe but it's the issues they are confusing. What you call this double should reflect the type of hand it shows, not how the next player responds to it. It's a bit unfortunate that the name reflects the latter.

Which is precisely the reason why it should be referred to as convertible values to the masses.

That term says nothing about your shape.

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Apr 9 2010, 11:28 AM, said:

This double is still "takeout"! Maybe that's a bad name because partner won't often take it out, but it means the exact same as any other takeout double, something like "support for the other 3 suits, but the more extra values I have the wider variety of shapes I may have". The meaning of the double doesn't change just because partner's strategy of responding to it changes. There is nothing confusing about calling it a "takeout" double IMO.

hmmm I certainly agree with you assessment of the double but the name issue should be related to how weak your hand is. I.e. as your hand gets weaker the more important it is to bid with a takeout X but the reverse is true with a "convertible" X