[MFA]

gnasher, on Apr 5 2010, 07:00 PM, said:

I think it's standard for a 4NT opening to ask for specific aces.  I think it's almost standard for a 5NT reply to show two aces (though some people play 5NT as ♣A and 6♣ as two aces).  I've never heard of any scheme that lets you find out which two aces partner has.

5NT = ♣A
6♣ = colour, ♠+♣ or ♥+♦
6♦ = rank, ♠+♥ or ♦+♣
6♥ = odd, ♠+♦ or ♥+♣

[jdonn]

Pay off to - AKQJ - KQJTxxxxx when partner has spades and diamonds? Bah maybe it's worth it.

[barryallen]

cherdanno, on Apr 5 2010, 11:43 AM, said:

barryallen, on Apr 5 2010, 11:11 AM, said:

cherdanno, on Apr 5 2010, 10:27 AM, said:

I think these arguments on the specific hand are beyond the point. When folks open 6♥, they aren't sure to make it, they are taking a shot. If they were sure to make 6♥ they would try to find out whether they can make 7. If Josh's example doesn't convince you, make it more shapely so that 6H-1 is more likely to be a good save vs 6S.

So I wouldn't expect partner to raise 6H with the ♥A alone, but I certainly would expect him to raise after 2C-xx-6H. Of course there may be a 5m preempt but then I don't think we are worse off than after opening 6H.

The crux of the point is based upon opening 6♥ when missing the ♥A and another feature to bring the contract home. You can normally find out whether partner has the Ace. I am having difficulty with the logic of not asking about the ♥A ?

ITS A PREEMPT TOO!

void KQJT-8th AK-5th void

Many would open 6H with that. That doesn't mean they want to be in 7 opposite the ♥A.

That is workable. But why would anyone want to incorporate all the other bids mentioned into that, just does not stand up.

[gnasher]

MFA, on Apr 5 2010, 06:12 PM, said:

gnasher, on Apr 5 2010, 07:00 PM, said:

I think it's standard for a 4NT opening to ask for specific aces.  I think it's almost standard for a 5NT reply to show two aces (though some people play 5NT as ♣A and 6♣ as two aces).  I've never heard of any scheme that lets you find out which two aces partner has.

5NT = ♣A
6♣ = colour, ♠+♣ or ♥+♦
6♦ = rank, ♠+♥ or ♦+♣
6♥ = odd, ♠+♦ or ♥+♣

Ok. now I've heard of one.

[jdonn]

barryallen, on Apr 5 2010, 12:24 PM, said:

cherdanno, on Apr 5 2010, 11:43 AM, said:

barryallen, on Apr 5 2010, 11:11 AM, said:

cherdanno, on Apr 5 2010, 10:27 AM, said:

I think these arguments on the specific hand are beyond the point. When folks open 6♥, they aren't sure to make it, they are taking a shot. If they were sure to make 6♥ they would try to find out whether they can make 7. If Josh's example doesn't convince you, make it more shapely so that 6H-1 is more likely to be a good save vs 6S.

So I wouldn't expect partner to raise 6H with the ♥A alone, but I certainly would expect him to raise after 2C-xx-6H. Of course there may be a 5m preempt but then I don't think we are worse off than after opening 6H.

The crux of the point is based upon opening 6♥ when missing the ♥A and another feature to bring the contract home. You can normally find out whether partner has the Ace. I am having difficulty with the logic of not asking about the ♥A ?

ITS A PREEMPT TOO!

void KQJT-8th AK-5th void

Many would open 6H with that. That doesn't mean they want to be in 7 opposite the ♥A.

That is workable. But why would anyone want to incorporate all the other bids mentioned into that, just does not stand up.

I don't even know what you are saying.

[MFA]

jdonn, on Apr 5 2010, 07:13 PM, said:

Pay off to - AKQJ - KQJTxxxxx when partner has spades and diamonds? Bah maybe it's worth it.

Very, very easy 5NT opening as we play it.

Initiates denial cuebids, partner bids the lowest suit where he lacks A or K and must raise any suit I bid thereafter with A or K there.

So as it is we have a luxury choice of openings (4NT or 5NT) with OP's hand.

Is that 5NT-treatment not standard anymore either?
What else is a 5NT opening?

[Jlall]

On this hand even if you have no scheme to handle 2 aces, you can bid 4N-5H-7H. If partner had the DA+HA instead, you could bid 4N-5D-6H-7H (responder knowing his HA is enough to bid 7).

If partner had both minor suit aces you would be in trouble bidding 4N-5D-6H though since you might also have AKQJ AKQJTxxx --- x without any agreements on how to bid 2 aces.

[barryallen]

jdonn, on Apr 5 2010, 12:39 PM, said:

I don't even know what you are saying.

One long suit accompanied by a secondary suit, circa opening points with two losers. Or are you going to try and fit a variety of stronger hands into this bid?

[jdonn]

barryallen, on Apr 5 2010, 01:35 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 5 2010, 12:39 PM, said:

I don't even know what you are saying.

One long suit accompanied by a secondary suit, circa opening points with two losers. Or are you going to try and fit a variety of stronger hands into this bid?

I still don't have any idea what you are saying or asking. Complete sentences please?

[cloa513]

The big problem with opening 2C or 1 S is that opponents will be given the chance to find the sacrifice in a minor if they have it. Opening 3NT or 4NT does limit that chance as they have to commit the high level on their first bid.

[gwnn]

I wonder if it would increase the chance of getting doubled to open 1NT... maybe I should stop wondering about such thoughts

[MFA]

gwnn, on Apr 6 2010, 01:13 PM, said:

I wonder if it would increase the chance of getting doubled to open 1NT... maybe I should stop wondering about such thoughts

15-17... Any particular reason to believe that 1NT might not go all pass?

[gwnn]

yes I didn't think of that really:) i wish there was an option to delete messages

i mean even though we have a quite unbalanced hand many opps have major centric defences and then it could go pass pass pass.

well I guess it would be a funny story though

[Phil]

gwnn, on Apr 6 2010, 06:13 AM, said:

I wonder if it would increase the chance of getting doubled to open 1NT... maybe I should stop wondering about such thoughts

Why not, you would have the mother of all super-accepts if partner found a 2♦/2♥ call.

[jdonn]

The old 7 level super accept of hearts?

[ArtK78]

gwnn, on Apr 6 2010, 06:13 AM, said:

I wonder if it would increase the chance of getting doubled to open 1NT... maybe I should stop wondering about such thoughts

Considering the flak one gets for opening 1NT with a singleton, one would probably get the death penalty for opening 1NT with two voids!

[CSGibson]

gwnn, on Apr 6 2010, 04:13 AM, said:

I wonder if it would increase the chance of getting doubled to open 1NT... maybe I should stop wondering about such thoughts

I had a beginner open KQx AKJxxxx Kxx void as 1N 1st seat. She just looked at her hand over and over, and afterwards wondered why she was going down in 3N when everyone else was making 4 hearts. She kept on saying "I had 16, I had to open 1N". Everyone was too amused to point out what went wrong, but she'd probably open this hand 1N also. It has 16, after all.

[shintaro]

similar to waynes except using 4NT so we are 1 level higher meaning we can still stop in 5♥or♠

Or for that matter we can stop in 5♣

Assuming we held same shaped hands in ♣ and A.N.Other