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Would you bypass your spade suit here?

#1 User is offline   Wackojack 

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Posted 2010-March-29, 10:01

Scoring: MP

Playing SA in a f2f MP tournament, partner opens 1♥. Do you respond 1♠ hoping to find a fit there? Or do you respond 1NT hoping your partner's 2nd suit is clubs and not spades, thus enabling you to get your diamonds mentioned? Is this an odds decision?
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#2 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2010-March-29, 10:04

1♠ since I can get out in 2♦ anyway after a 1NT rebid. I'm not going to just cater to hearts and clubs (and a minimum) this early in the auction when we could have a spade fit.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2010-March-29, 10:39

I agree with josh...but both of us are, I suspect, influenced by methods.

2way nmf allows an easy 2♣ puppet over 1N, while BART removes (for me) the ability to get to 2♦ if I respond 1N and he bids 2♣.

So I am endplayed into 1♠ regardless of the merits of that call, based on my methods...and they are fairly common methods, I think. BART, maybe not so much, but the advantage of 2way is enough for me even if I didn't use BART.
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#4 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2010-March-29, 10:46

1NT if not playing BART.
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#5 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2010-March-29, 10:51

agree with josh and mike given 2way nmf
OK
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#6 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 00:18

1 NT.

If partner had answered 1 NT to 1 ♠ I would like to play 2 ♦.
If partner had answered 2 ♣ to 1 ♠, I quite likely want to play 2♦.

So, if we are in the part score zone, our choice mostly matters if partner has a two suiter in hearts with a black suit. I bet that a two sutier in clubs is much more likely, so 1 N will win more often then 1♠.

And if we are in the game zone, we will still find 4 ♠, so that is no loss either.
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#7 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 01:03

mikeh, on Mar 29 2010, 05:39 PM, said:

the advantage of 2way is enough for me even if I didn't use BART.

What are the advantages? I realise that for a casual partnership it is convenient to know which auctions are game forcing and which are not; but for a serious partnership, why do you think it is better to use two bids to check back?
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#8 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 01:08

Definitely 1S
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#9 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 01:18

I like 1N. Never been a fan of responding 1S to 1H on weak 4 card suits when I have an alternative anyway. (Obviously bid 1S if you are playing bart.)
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#10 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 01:37

Vampyr, on Mar 29 2010, 11:03 PM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 29 2010, 05:39 PM, said:

the advantage of 2way is enough for me even if I didn't use BART.

What are the advantages? I realise that for a casual partnership it is convenient to know which auctions are game forcing and which are not; but for a serious partnership, why do you think it is better to use two bids to check back?

It is a mistake to think of 2-way as "2 ways to check back". The 2♣ acts as a puppet to 2♦ and thus gives you a sign off in a minor common on hands like this if partner opens 1♣ or 1♥ and rebids 1nt over our 1♠. Also, it means that you have more forcing auctions available, which lets you partition them more effectively. Also, it means on many invitational sequences you don't leak information as you ask about a specific feature that you care about, rather than ask in general and have partner leak information.

In my mind it is a little like saying "why bother with transfers, I mean in some partnerships right siding a contract is better, but that isn't such a big deal is it?". Well the advantages to transfers are more than just right siding, they are also the many continuations. 2way nmf is a lot more than just 2 ways to check back!
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#11 User is offline   jukmoi 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 03:00

Wackojack, on Mar 29 2010, 11:01 AM, said:

Scoring: MP

Playing SA in a f2f MP tournament, partner opens 1♥. Do you respond 1♠ hoping to find a fit there? Or do you respond 1NT hoping your partner's 2nd suit is clubs and not spades, thus enabling you to get your diamonds mentioned? Is this an odds decision?

1♠. I may be sorry after 2♣ rebid, but even then 2♥ may be a better MP contract than 2♦.
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#12 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 08:10

Mbodell, on Mar 30 2010, 02:37 AM, said:

Also, it means on many invitational sequences you don't leak information as you ask about a specific feature that you care about, rather than ask in general and have partner leak information.

Also you can stop lower sometimes in invitational sequences, ie you can stop in 2M on a 5-2 or 5-3 fit instead of playing 2NT or 3M on some hands, which granted is a small victory but a victory nonetheless.
OK
bed
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#13 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 13:39

Does the fact that OP specified that we are playing SA imply that we are not playing Bart or 2way new-minor forcing? I don't play either of them, so I don't honestly know when they apply.
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#14 User is offline   Mbodell 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 15:45

Bbradley62, on Mar 30 2010, 11:39 AM, said:

Does the fact that OP specified that we are playing SA imply that we are not playing Bart or 2way new-minor forcing? I don't play either of them, so I don't honestly know when they apply.

No. I play 2 way nmf in 2 different SA partnerships. I don't play BART and am not that familiar with it, however, I also believe that it is an add on that works in a SA or 2/1 or whatever equally well.

SA doesn't imply that you are playing either of these conventions, obviously, but it also doesn't imply that you aren't playing them either.
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#15 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 16:11

Nitpicking:

1- It's not "BART", it's "Bart". Someone's name, not an acronym. "BART" the acronym is the SF Bay area commuter rail system.

2 - Since when did Bart have anything to do with this sequence whatsoever?? I thought Bart applied only to 1♠-1nt-2♣-?, the use of 2♦ here artificially to show hearts or some other hand types.

Using 1♥-1♠-2♣ artificially I thought was called "Cole".

FWIW I prefer 1nt on this hand.
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#16 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 16:30

Stephen Tu, on Mar 30 2010, 03:11 PM, said:

2 - Since when did Bart have anything to do with this sequence whatsoever?? I thought Bart applied only to 1♠-1nt-2♣-?, the use of 2♦ here artificially to show hearts or some other hand types.

I don't know about standard Bart, but many people play the sequence

1H-1N
2C-2D

with 2D artificial, not a weak signoff in diamonds. If you play this, then obviously 1N is silly since you will never get to sign off in diamonds anyway, short of the 3 level.
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#17 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 19:07

1♠. My spades are decent and who says partner is always going to bid 2♣?
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#18 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2010-March-30, 19:11

1S for me. If partner bids 1NT I can bid 2C puppet to 2D.
Even not playing this, I would still bid 1S.
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#19 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 02:34

Easy 1♠
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#20 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2010-March-31, 04:24

I think we'd be quite lucky if pard rebids 1NT... still, 1♠ + 2♥ preference seems normal. I'd try something like replying 1NT + 2♦ if I wanted to hog the hand :)
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