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For reference, this is a spinoff of jillybean's thread - feel free to use this auction if it helps.
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A98753 QT3 K95 Q
1♠:2N
3♣:3♥
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1♠:2N
3♣:3♥
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Serious/Frivolous 3NT
#1
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Posted 2010-March-30, 09:43
Rather than write down my guess as to what these are, could someone please explain what these conventions are? Specifically, what problems they solve, what to do if you don't use them, when/if B/I should use them, what you give up by adopting them, etc.
For reference, this is a spinoff of jillybean's thread - feel free to use this auction if it helps.
For reference, this is a spinoff of jillybean's thread - feel free to use this auction if it helps.
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.
"gwnn" said:
rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
#2
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Posted 2010-March-30, 10:03
Serious/Friv 3NT is a tool that's employed when your side has agreed to play in a major suit. People who use this convention basically say 'ok, we're not going to play in 3NT' when they've found a fit they're happy with, and so decide to use it as a cuebid, of sorts.
Basically, if you're playing 'serious 3NT' then a bid of 3NT (usually) shows 'serious' slam interest. If you bypass 3NT to cuebid 4m, say, that shows a courtesy cuebid and partner should only get excited if his hand is really good. If it's marginal, he knows he doesn't have to keep exploring.
I say 'usually' because it's potentially useful to play 3♠ as your 'serious 3NT' when you've agreed to play in hearts. 3♠ would then show serious slam interest, nothing about spades (partner can then 'cuebid' spades w/ 3NT), while bypassing 3♠ to bid 3NT would show a courtesy cuebid in spades. Depending on who's bidding what, you can have varying agreements, and it gets pretty complex (as if playing this convention isn't complex enough). Switching over hearts is nice because you have 1 more step between yourself and game after you've told partner whether you're for real or not. If you have to bypass 3♠ (a cue that you have) to make a 'serious' try with 3N, and partner does one thing or another you'll be left to wonder if you should move on past 4♥.
From what I know I think a lot of people now use Serious' little brother 'frivilous 3NT.' This basically just reverses the implications of bypassing 3NT (now a serious cuebid) and pausing there (showing only passing interest). A big benefit to this is you can bid 3NT when you're not serious about slam, nobody knows anything more about your controls than what you've already shown, and partner can sign off without the opps doubling for the lead, etc.
B/I? Hardly. Use only in serious partnerships and have firm understandings! It's not like it's the cat's meow or anything. I play this with one partner and we just have agreed to play it when we find a fit at the 3-level, and there has been no interference. I'm sure this is a really narrow scope and we would be better served expanding when it's in use... but what can I say? Sometimes it's nice to play 3NT, and it's also nice to not have to remember stuff all the time.
With the auction in question, I don't mind not playing a 3NT convention. We already know we're in a slam-exploratory auction, and 3NT might be useful for some other purpose (for instance, showing fillers in the red suits). But here if you were playing serious 3NT you would probably bypass 3NT to bid 4♦, non-serious. You have a 6th trump (awesome) and a ♦ control (useful), but minimal values and will have still made 2 bids towards slam, just right, I think.
Basically, if you're playing 'serious 3NT' then a bid of 3NT (usually) shows 'serious' slam interest. If you bypass 3NT to cuebid 4m, say, that shows a courtesy cuebid and partner should only get excited if his hand is really good. If it's marginal, he knows he doesn't have to keep exploring.
I say 'usually' because it's potentially useful to play 3♠ as your 'serious 3NT' when you've agreed to play in hearts. 3♠ would then show serious slam interest, nothing about spades (partner can then 'cuebid' spades w/ 3NT), while bypassing 3♠ to bid 3NT would show a courtesy cuebid in spades. Depending on who's bidding what, you can have varying agreements, and it gets pretty complex (as if playing this convention isn't complex enough). Switching over hearts is nice because you have 1 more step between yourself and game after you've told partner whether you're for real or not. If you have to bypass 3♠ (a cue that you have) to make a 'serious' try with 3N, and partner does one thing or another you'll be left to wonder if you should move on past 4♥.
From what I know I think a lot of people now use Serious' little brother 'frivilous 3NT.' This basically just reverses the implications of bypassing 3NT (now a serious cuebid) and pausing there (showing only passing interest). A big benefit to this is you can bid 3NT when you're not serious about slam, nobody knows anything more about your controls than what you've already shown, and partner can sign off without the opps doubling for the lead, etc.
B/I? Hardly. Use only in serious partnerships and have firm understandings! It's not like it's the cat's meow or anything. I play this with one partner and we just have agreed to play it when we find a fit at the 3-level, and there has been no interference. I'm sure this is a really narrow scope and we would be better served expanding when it's in use... but what can I say? Sometimes it's nice to play 3NT, and it's also nice to not have to remember stuff all the time.
With the auction in question, I don't mind not playing a 3NT convention. We already know we're in a slam-exploratory auction, and 3NT might be useful for some other purpose (for instance, showing fillers in the red suits). But here if you were playing serious 3NT you would probably bypass 3NT to bid 4♦, non-serious. You have a 6th trump (awesome) and a ♦ control (useful), but minimal values and will have still made 2 bids towards slam, just right, I think.
Kevin Fay
#3
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Posted 2010-March-30, 10:36
Nicely done, Kevin.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
#4
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Posted 2010-March-30, 11:08
There is perhaps a slight disagreement here about the nature of cuebids.
The old-fashioned style was that cuebidding below game was optional, and if you don't like your hand you bid 4M. So in the example auction, with extras opener would cuebid and with a minimum opener bids 4♠.
The problem with the old-fashioned style is that sometimes partner has a big hand, and is left guessing whether to proceed over 4M. However, if opener were to always cuebid below game where possible, this gives a lot of help to the opponents on hands where slam is out of the picture, and also sometimes makes it hard to tell who (if anyone) has extra values.
The way I understand serious 3NT is that cuebidding is mandatory in these auctions where partner is unlimited, and that bidding 3NT says "I have extras" while bypassing 3NT to cuebid says "I have a minimum but am cooperating." Bypassing available cuebids to sign off in 4M not only shows a minimum, but also denies outside first or second round controls which could be cuebid below game.
Some people seem to want to use serious 3NT instead to distinguish three levels of interest, where bidding 3NT shows a really big hand, cuebidding shows a "better than minimum" hand, and bidding 4M shows a "really bad" hand while not denying controls in the bypassed suits. This is obviously slightly different from what I've described above, and this approach seems implicit in some of what Kevin Fay said (although he didn't mention it directly).
The old-fashioned style was that cuebidding below game was optional, and if you don't like your hand you bid 4M. So in the example auction, with extras opener would cuebid and with a minimum opener bids 4♠.
The problem with the old-fashioned style is that sometimes partner has a big hand, and is left guessing whether to proceed over 4M. However, if opener were to always cuebid below game where possible, this gives a lot of help to the opponents on hands where slam is out of the picture, and also sometimes makes it hard to tell who (if anyone) has extra values.
The way I understand serious 3NT is that cuebidding is mandatory in these auctions where partner is unlimited, and that bidding 3NT says "I have extras" while bypassing 3NT to cuebid says "I have a minimum but am cooperating." Bypassing available cuebids to sign off in 4M not only shows a minimum, but also denies outside first or second round controls which could be cuebid below game.
Some people seem to want to use serious 3NT instead to distinguish three levels of interest, where bidding 3NT shows a really big hand, cuebidding shows a "better than minimum" hand, and bidding 4M shows a "really bad" hand while not denying controls in the bypassed suits. This is obviously slightly different from what I've described above, and this approach seems implicit in some of what Kevin Fay said (although he didn't mention it directly).
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
#5
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Posted 2010-March-30, 12:29
Thanks. Been thinking about slam bidding lately, and I always seem to have a concern once we start cuebidding that nobody's going to know how to avoid going slam when we both have minimum openers with decent controls....
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.
"gwnn" said:
rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
#6
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Posted 2010-March-30, 12:36
Hi,
If you have discovered a 8 card fit in a major, you need to answer
the question to you still want to have the option to end up playing
in 3NT.
Some will say, yes, some will say no. Those who say yes, may change
their answer, if they have discovered a 9 card fit.
If you ruled out the option to end up in 3NT, a 3NT bid is now a free
bid, having no meaning, and because of this one can use the bid to
support slam investigations, and in this regard it works similar to a
2NT Lebensohl bid, you have direct actions or actions going via 3NT,
i.e. you doubel the possible number of seq.
Serious / Non-Serious means just, that the stronger or the weaker
hand go via 3NT.
There is a certain theoretical adv. to play, that the weaker hand go
through 3NT.
And just a final comment - playing serious 3NT, 3NT sometimes asks p
only to have a look at his hand, and to decide if he really likes his hand
in the context of what he already has shown, i.e. he has made a limit
raise, but happens to have a control rich limit raise he should move on,
even if opener signs of in 4H.
With kind regards
Marlowe
If you have discovered a 8 card fit in a major, you need to answer
the question to you still want to have the option to end up playing
in 3NT.
Some will say, yes, some will say no. Those who say yes, may change
their answer, if they have discovered a 9 card fit.
If you ruled out the option to end up in 3NT, a 3NT bid is now a free
bid, having no meaning, and because of this one can use the bid to
support slam investigations, and in this regard it works similar to a
2NT Lebensohl bid, you have direct actions or actions going via 3NT,
i.e. you doubel the possible number of seq.
Serious / Non-Serious means just, that the stronger or the weaker
hand go via 3NT.
There is a certain theoretical adv. to play, that the weaker hand go
through 3NT.
And just a final comment - playing serious 3NT, 3NT sometimes asks p
only to have a look at his hand, and to decide if he really likes his hand
in the context of what he already has shown, i.e. he has made a limit
raise, but happens to have a control rich limit raise he should move on,
even if opener signs of in 4H.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#7
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Posted 2010-March-30, 15:30
vuroth, on Mar 30 2010, 01:29 PM, said:
Thanks. Been thinking about slam bidding lately, and I always seem to have a concern once we start cuebidding that nobody's going to know how to avoid going slam when we both have minimum openers with decent controls....
Just play either player needs extras to go beyond game, no one can do it with a minimum.
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#8
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Posted 2010-March-31, 12:28
jdonn, on Mar 30 2010, 04:30 PM, said:
vuroth, on Mar 30 2010, 01:29 PM, said:
Thanks. Been thinking about slam bidding lately, and I always seem to have a concern once we start cuebidding that nobody's going to know how to avoid going slam when we both have minimum openers with decent controls....
Just play either player needs extras to go beyond game, no one can do it with a minimum.
Huh?
I mean, in the simplest and most conservative form of slam analysis ("points"), you need about 32-33 points for slam. Game is bid with an opener (about 13) opposite an opener (about 13), for about 26 points. That means that you need about 6-7 more "points" for slam.
If cuebidding is about "controls," then you also need something to say something about "points."
The "three-stage" approach, albeit very basic, seems plausible in a "points" approach, and better than going past game with a non-minimum. It's the 16-point hand that overbids or underbids routinely.
If, for example, 1♠-P-3♠ is a GF raise sequence, it would seem to make sense, as a simple method of cuebidding, to have the following agreement:
1. With a minimum (13-14), Opener bids 4♠. Responder can move with 19+ himself.
2. With a maximum (19-20), Opener bids 3NT, serious. Responder must show controls even with a minimum, because Opener is going to ask for Aces unless an obvious hole surfaces.
3. With a tweener (15-18), Opener cuebids above 3NT, showing uncertainty, but a control nonetheless. This invites partner to participate. If partner has a minimum (13-14), he declines. With a really nice hand himself ("high tweener" of 17-18), he takes over and bids 4NT when the time comes. With a promising hand ("low tweener" of 15-16), he cooperates with a cue but then leaves it up to Opener to take the plunge.
4. Judgment always applies.
Not what I'd do, but plausible, and probably B/I effective.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
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-P.J. Painter.
#9
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Posted 2010-March-31, 13:17
kenrexford, on Mar 31 2010, 01:28 PM, said:
jdonn, on Mar 30 2010, 04:30 PM, said:
vuroth, on Mar 30 2010, 01:29 PM, said:
Thanks. Been thinking about slam bidding lately, and I always seem to have a concern once we start cuebidding that nobody's going to know how to avoid going slam when we both have minimum openers with decent controls....
Just play either player needs extras to go beyond game, no one can do it with a minimum.
Huh?
I mean, in the simplest and most conservative form of slam analysis ("points"), you need about 32-33 points for slam. Game is bid with an opener (about 13) opposite an opener (about 13), for about 26 points. That means that you need about 6-7 more "points" for slam.
If cuebidding is about "controls," then you also need something to say something about "points."
The "three-stage" approach, albeit very basic, seems plausible in a "points" approach, and better than going past game with a non-minimum. It's the 16-point hand that overbids or underbids routinely.
If, for example, 1♠-P-3♠ is a GF raise sequence, it would seem to make sense, as a simple method of cuebidding, to have the following agreement:
1. With a minimum (13-14), Opener bids 4♠. Responder can move with 19+ himself.
2. With a maximum (19-20), Opener bids 3NT, serious. Responder must show controls even with a minimum, because Opener is going to ask for Aces unless an obvious hole surfaces.
3. With a tweener (15-18), Opener cuebids above 3NT, showing uncertainty, but a control nonetheless. This invites partner to participate. If partner has a minimum (13-14), he declines. With a really nice hand himself ("high tweener" of 17-18), he takes over and bids 4NT when the time comes. With a promising hand ("low tweener" of 15-16), he cooperates with a cue but then leaves it up to Opener to take the plunge.
4. Judgment always applies.
Not what I'd do, but plausible, and probably B/I effective.
This isn't how Serious 3N works. I know you know this, but if you are trying to coming up with a 'simplified' version for BI's, I think you are doing the opposite.
Using the forcing raise example:
1. 3N is 'serious', but isn't committed past 4M. If pressed, I'd say about K (or A) more than a minimum. Obviously this does not exclude a 19 that is planning on moving past game.
2. 4x is 'non-serious, and can be on a minimum up to whatever is required for 3N. The first article I read (Fred's) about Serious 3N was that a cuebid said "I have a minimum hand and am cuebidding in case you have a good hand".
Hi y'all!
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
#10
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Posted 2010-March-31, 19:14
Well we've use to count 1 point for each card over fifth right?
This is not the case in a slam situation. When a fit is found the extra cards is count for an extra trick each (3 points) but if there's no fit then i can say the extras could be completely worthless.
The point i am trying to make, is that overall strengh may not be as important as finding a possible side fit. So i need a direct "cue-bid" as a "honor-fitting bid" while a "control-bid" is made via 3NT.
When the auction began 1♥ [P] 3♥ [P]
with ♠ - ♥ AQxxx ♦ AQxxx ♣xxx
Assume your partner holds ♣Axx
If partner holds a ♦Kxx then you are happy to see your 4th / 5th diamond discarding partners club loser and may ruff for extra tricks. If it is ♣/♠K then your small diamonds may be worthness too in spite of the king.
(In establishing them you lose club tricks in advance)
I use a direct 4♦ as a "honor fitting" with a suit that needs a fitting and at least 5 cards. Partner make "positive" response particularly depends on his ♦ honor. If he has he cues if he doesn't he sign offs.
A 3NT bid is a control initiating bid. It gives an influence that either i have a side solid suit or having no respectiful five card suit.
This is not the case in a slam situation. When a fit is found the extra cards is count for an extra trick each (3 points) but if there's no fit then i can say the extras could be completely worthless.
The point i am trying to make, is that overall strengh may not be as important as finding a possible side fit. So i need a direct "cue-bid" as a "honor-fitting bid" while a "control-bid" is made via 3NT.
When the auction began 1♥ [P] 3♥ [P]
with ♠ - ♥ AQxxx ♦ AQxxx ♣xxx
Assume your partner holds ♣Axx
If partner holds a ♦Kxx then you are happy to see your 4th / 5th diamond discarding partners club loser and may ruff for extra tricks. If it is ♣/♠K then your small diamonds may be worthness too in spite of the king.
(In establishing them you lose club tricks in advance)
I use a direct 4♦ as a "honor fitting" with a suit that needs a fitting and at least 5 cards. Partner make "positive" response particularly depends on his ♦ honor. If he has he cues if he doesn't he sign offs.
A 3NT bid is a control initiating bid. It gives an influence that either i have a side solid suit or having no respectiful five card suit.
#11
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Posted 2010-April-01, 00:53
Kevin explained 3 NT really nicely. I just disagree about the part that 3 NT is complicated and that you should switch when you have a heart fit.
3 NT can be used by both partners.
So, if you have reached 3 ♥ you give your spade cue if you have one and partner has the obligation to limit his hand with the use of ser3NT or not.
So 3 NT says: Giving the bidding so far, I have maximum and no more control I can show below 3NT.
3 NT can be used by both partners.
So, if you have reached 3 ♥ you give your spade cue if you have one and partner has the obligation to limit his hand with the use of ser3NT or not.
So 3 NT says: Giving the bidding so far, I have maximum and no more control I can show below 3NT.
Kind Regards
Roland
Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
Roland
Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
#12
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Posted 2010-April-01, 06:40
I really really hate adding gadgets to my game just because they're there, but I'm actually having a hard time seeing how to cuebid effectively without this gadget....
Still decidedly intermediate - don't take my guesses as authoritative.
"gwnn" said:
rule number 1 in efficient forum reading:
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
hanp does not always mean literally what he writes.
#13
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Posted 2010-April-01, 08:04
vuroth, on Apr 1 2010, 07:40 AM, said:
I really really hate adding gadgets to my game just because they're there, but I'm actually having a hard time seeing how to cuebid effectively without this gadget....
It is a useful agreement, and your slam bidding will improve considerable,
this was at least the case, as started using this. (*)
And I dont play the modified version, switching 3S and 3NT with hearts as
truumps.
And there is virtual no loss, since it only applies in situation, where you
already today have ruled out to play 3NT.
Of course, you may like it, and as a consequence rule out add. seq.
With kind regards
Marlowe
PS: (*) Add to this the agreement, that the first cue showes a top honor,
and you will have discover, that you will be able to decide below 4M, if slam
is on or not.
The "first cue is an honor" agreement will quite often act as an adv. key card
ask.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#14
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Posted 2010-April-01, 08:21
P_Marlowe, on Apr 1 2010, 03:04 PM, said:
PS: (*) Add to this the agreement, that the first cue showes a top honor, and you will have discover, that you will be able to decide below 4M, if slam is on or not.
The "first cue is an honor" agreement will quite often act as an adv. key card ask.
The "first cue is an honor" agreement will quite often act as an adv. key card ask.
Your first cue can be a Queen? That's poor advice imo!
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#15
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Posted 2010-April-02, 04:33
Free, on Apr 1 2010, 09:21 AM, said:
P_Marlowe, on Apr 1 2010, 03:04 PM, said:
PS: (*) Add to this the agreement, that the first cue showes a top honor, and you will have discover, that you will be able to decide below 4M, if slam is on or not.
The "first cue is an honor" agreement will quite often act as an adv. key card ask.
The "first cue is an honor" agreement will quite often act as an adv. key card ask.
Your first cue can be a Queen? That's poor advice imo!
Well, a cue usually showes first or second round control, together with "is an honor", makes this Ace or King.
But if you know, that a p has a long suit, than a queen is certainly a nice card, and p
will be delighted to hear about it.
With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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