BBO Discussion Forums: Problem after Kokish - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Problem after Kokish

#1 User is offline   hanp 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,987
  • Joined: 2009-February-15

Posted 2010-March-31, 07:31

xxxx
K10
Qxx
108xx

2C - 2D (values)
2H (forces 2S) - 2S (forced)
3C (natural, hearts and clubs) - ??

Pairs, forgot about vulnerability.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
0

#2 User is offline   Jlall 

  • Follower of 655321
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 3,293
  • Joined: 2008-December-05
  • Interests:drinking, women, bridge...what else?

Posted 2010-March-31, 07:51

I'd def bid 3H.
0

#3 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,404
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2010-March-31, 07:53

not used of the methods, but I think this showes longer or equal hearts, I'd also bid 3 focusing on the most likelly game. With something stronger (add Q for example), 4 would be more appealing.
0

#4 User is offline   Free 

  • mmm Duvel
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,728
  • Joined: 2003-July-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Belgium
  • Interests:Duvel, Whisky

Posted 2010-March-31, 07:56

3, partner can still show more about his hand. Eventually we can still get to 6 in many cases if necessary.
"It may be rude to leave to go to the bathroom, but it's downright stupid to sit there and piss yourself" - blackshoe
0

#5 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2010-March-31, 07:58

4, focussing on the most likely slam. Opposite AKx AQJxx x AKQx, which is not necessarily a 2 opener, and where 2/5 of our points are completely wasted, slam is in the high 60s. That heart holding is really good for a club contact.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#6 User is offline   Phil 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,092
  • Joined: 2008-December-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Texas, USA
  • Interests:Mountain Biking

Posted 2010-March-31, 09:08

Jlall, on Mar 31 2010, 08:51 AM, said:

I'd def bid 3H.

Me too. I am close to a minimum and its pairs.

4 is chasing moonbeams.
Hi y'all!

Winner - BBO Challenge bracket #6 - February, 2017.
0

#7 User is offline   Apollo81 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,162
  • Joined: 2006-July-10
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Maryland

Posted 2010-March-31, 09:20

Agree with gnasher, I think slam will make pretty often.
0

#8 User is offline   Jlall 

  • Follower of 655321
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 3,293
  • Joined: 2008-December-05
  • Interests:drinking, women, bridge...what else?

Posted 2010-March-31, 09:20

gnasher, on Mar 31 2010, 08:58 AM, said:

Opposite AKx AQJxx x AKQx, which is not necessarily a 2 opener

How is this not necessarily a 2C opener?
0

#9 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,786
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2010-March-31, 09:33

Jlall, on Mar 31 2010, 10:20 AM, said:

gnasher, on Mar 31 2010, 08:58 AM, said:

Opposite AKx AQJxx x AKQx, which is not necessarily a 2 opener

How is this not necessarily a 2C opener?

And I thought my 2 opening requirements were high.

Absolute 2 opener.

As for the original problem, I bid 3. I have one sure cover card (the K) opposite a 3 or less loser hand (the typical loser count for a 2 opening). The Q is a potential cover card if partner has diamond length. In any event, it is not clear that slam is in the picture. For example, partner could have a solid 2 opener like this one:

AKQ AQJxx x AKxx

Slam is virtually hopeless on this hand (on a non-diamond lead 6 has a chance).

If partner moves towards slam I will try to offer a choice of slams. If the club fit is solid, clubs is likely to be a better place to play slam. For example:

x AQJxx Ax AKQxx

Now this hand is a borderline 2 opening, but 6 rates to be easy.
0

#10 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,404
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2010-March-31, 13:46

rather than offer a choice Art, if given the opportunity I will try to impose clubs for slam :)
0

#11 User is offline   ArtK78 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,786
  • Joined: 2004-September-05
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Galloway NJ USA
  • Interests:Bridge, Poker, participatory and spectator sports.
    Occupation - Tax Attorney in Atlantic City, NJ.

Posted 2010-March-31, 14:23

Fluffy, on Mar 31 2010, 02:46 PM, said:

rather than offer a choice Art, if given the opportunity I will try to impose clubs for slam :)

If you bid 3 over 3, can you really impose clubs as the trump suit later in the auction? If not, do you recommend bidding 4 now?
0

#12 User is offline   Fluffy 

  • World International Master without a clue
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,404
  • Joined: 2003-November-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:madrid

Posted 2010-March-31, 14:45

yeah yeah, I know what you mean, was just a joke.

If partner bids 4 next I think it is time to make it clear that we wanna play clubs, with a raise to the 6 level he should get the message.
0

#13 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2010-March-31, 14:49

Jlall, on Mar 31 2010, 04:20 PM, said:

gnasher, on Mar 31 2010, 08:58 AM, said:

Opposite AKx AQJxx x AKQx, which is not necessarily a 2 opener

How is this not necessarily a 2C opener?

It seems to have grown in high cards since I created it.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#14 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2010-March-31, 15:06

ArtK78, on Mar 31 2010, 04:33 PM, said:

For example, partner could have a solid 2 opener like this one:

AKQ AQJxx x AKxx

Slam is virtually hopeless on this hand (on a non-diamond lead 6 has a chance).

So what? 4 doesn't compel us to bid slam.

It's true that 5 is a worse game than 4, but that's what happens if you construct a hand where none of his minor honours are in clubs. If he had AKQ AQxxx x AKJx we'd be better off in 5 than 4.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#15 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,835
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2010-March-31, 15:10

I would bid 3. This shouldn't rule out a club contract, altho we may need sophisticated agreements, or luck, to get back to the suit. I have never discussed this with any partner, and I know the sequences are not directly comparable, but in a sequence such as 1  1  3  3, virtually all experts would, I think, stall with 3 on most hands containing K10 in hearts and xxxx in clubs. I appreciate that one major difference is that after a kokish auction, 3 is 'real' whereas the jumpshift may be a distortion necessitated by the need to create a force. However, the same needs apply: a desire to keep the bidding low rather than committing to a suit that may be far too weak for slam or even game purposes. In addition, this is mps where 10 tricks in hearts outscores 11 in clubs.

I do think that opener, with a slam suitable 2-suiter, should bid 4 naturally rather than as a cue bid. Then we raise to 5 or 6 depending on our partnership's view of the minimum strength of a 2-suited 2 opening....it should have play even if it is poor...they probably have to guess which pointed suit to lead to have any chance of beating it.

The need to use 4 over 3 as natural is not too much of a problem since he will rarely have unilateral slam interest without a spade control, so he can start slamtries with 3...which I do NOT think should be natural, patterning out...or am I allowing this hand and auction to influence me?
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#16 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,128
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2010-March-31, 18:26

hanp, on Mar 31 2010, 08:31 AM, said:

xxxx K10 Qxx 108xx
2C - 2D (values)
2H (forces 2S) - 2S (forced)
3C (natural, hearts and clubs) - ??
Pairs, forgot about vulnerability.
I like the Kokish convention. IMO, with a fit but without support, you should try to bid at the 3-level to keep 3N in the frame. Hence, bids at the 4-level normally show a double fit. Anyway, whatever it means, a 4 bid doesn't preclude either player from suggesting 4 as a contract -- by bidding it. In principle, a return to the major at the 4 level offers a choice of games. Hence ...
4 = 10, 4 = 9, 3 = 5.

BTW, my marks are simply a way of expressing the degree of my preference between calls that I consider making. Not a patronising attempt to rate other poster's comments.
0

#17 User is offline   cherdanno 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,640
  • Joined: 2009-February-16

Posted 2010-March-31, 20:18

gnasher, on Mar 31 2010, 04:06 PM, said:

ArtK78, on Mar 31 2010, 04:33 PM, said:

For example, partner could have a solid 2 opener like this one:

AKQ AQJxx x AKxx

Slam is virtually hopeless on this hand (on a non-diamond lead 6 has a chance).

So what? 4 doesn't compel us to bid slam.

It's true that 5 is a worse game than 4, but that's what happens if you construct a hand where none of his minor honours are in clubs. If he had AKQ AQxxx x AKJx we'd be better off in 5 than 4.

I think the scoring is matchpoints. I would raise to 4 at IMPs but at matchpoints raising clubs almost seems like betting we have slam.

Last time I thought about this auction I thought 3 should show a fit. The difference to the jump shift auction is obvious - we are much more likely to have a heart fit (as we couldn't raise hearts before), and partner is unlimited. I think showing a fit here is really important.

Maybe I would bid 3H anyway, or I would bid 4C and hope partner can bid 4H (which I would pass), I still don't know...
"Are you saying that LTC merits a more respectful dismissal?"
0

#18 User is offline   Codo 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,373
  • Joined: 2003-March-15
  • Location:Hamburg, Germany
  • Interests:games and sports, esp. bridge,chess and (beach-)volleyball

Posted 2010-April-01, 01:03

At imps always 4,
Kind Regards

Roland


Sanity Check: Failure (Fluffy)
More system is not the answer...
0

#19 User is offline   hanp 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,987
  • Joined: 2009-February-15

Posted 2010-April-01, 01:34

It's not imps.
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
0

#20 User is offline   karlson 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 974
  • Joined: 2005-April-06

Posted 2010-April-01, 01:57

cherdanno, on Mar 31 2010, 06:18 PM, said:

Last time I thought about this auction I thought 3 should show a fit. The difference to the jump shift auction is obvious - we are much more likely to have a heart fit (as we couldn't raise hearts before), and partner is unlimited. I think showing a fit here is really important.

Maybe I would bid 3H anyway, or I would bid 4C and hope partner can bid 4H (which I would pass), I still don't know...

Or you could play the kokish version I like where 3s shows a real fit and 3h can be a doubleton (and you show spades by bidding 2h-2n).

I would also bid 4c and hope that partner bids 4h.
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users