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no blame

#1 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 00:09

Scoring: IMP

(1♥) 4♦ (4♥) 5♦
(P) P (5♥) ?


This was the last board at the club tonight, fun hand. Do you agree with the bidding so far, and what next?
“It is not because things are difficult that we do not dare, it is because we do not dare that they are difficult.”
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#2 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 01:01

I'd pass. If partner has a black singleton we're beating 5H. Otherwise we'll get at most 1 heart ruff and 6D-X might go for 500. I won't play partner for 8 diamond tricks for a w/r preempt.
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#3 User is offline   jukmoi 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 01:05

Partner will hold something like ♠ x ♥ xx ♦ KQxxxxxx ♣ xx. We can probably beat 5♥ by giving a black suit ruff to partner. I believe that imp odds favour bidding though, since 6♦ might even make (partner holds ♠ x ♥ xxx ♦ AQxxxxxx ♣ x, 5♥ might make and 6♦ is unlikely to be more than two down.
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#4 User is offline   mohitz 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 01:11

Agree with 5D and now pass. I like my chances of defeating 5♥. Even if it makes, bidding 6D is likely to lead to a poor score at this vulnerability.

It would be a more interesting problem at favorable.
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#5 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 02:03

Pass.

Mission accopmplished, it is not clear, that 5H will go down,
but you will have a reasonable chance, be happy.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#6 User is offline   quiddity 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 03:08

jukmoi, on Mar 25 2010, 02:05 AM, said:

I believe that imp odds favour bidding though, since 6♦ might even make (partner holds ♠ x ♥ xxx ♦ AQxxxxxx ♣ x, 5♥ might make and 6♦ is unlikely to be more than two down.

I didn't notice that the scoring was imps - the mention of the club made me think it was matchpoints. How should I go about estimating imp odds at the table for a problem like this? It looks like bidding can gain a lot when partner has 3 hearts and will tend to lose a smaller amount when partner has 1-2 hearts.

I guess the other call to consider is double, which has a good chance of gaining 300 whenever partner holds either black singleton.
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#7 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 03:19

The way to win imps on this hand is to try to beat 5H, not bid all the way to the 6 level. We will probably lose 1 heart 1 black card for -200 when they'd have been down 1 and when he doesnt have a singleton in clubs or spades thus allowing them to make you go for -500 instead of -450 so you
win nothing. What jukmoi says that 6D might make is true (but its weird that in his universe theres a nonzero chance of 5H making!!! and where does he find opps who bid to thr 5level with 4 trumps?) but that's a very rare hand especially if we have 4 diamonds.

Note that I disregarded the chance of losing a trump trick, in that case we can go for -500 or -800 instead of +50/+100/-450.
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#8 User is offline   mich-b 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 03:41

I think I would double , not so much because I expect down 2 (though surely possible), more because that would (by implying outside defense) encourage pd to lead his black singleton, rather than try to cash a ♦ trick.
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#9 User is offline   jukmoi 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 04:31

mohitz, on Mar 25 2010, 02:11 AM, said:

Agree with 5D and now pass. I like my chances of defeating 5♥. Even if it makes, bidding 6D is likely to lead to a poor score at this vulnerability.

It would be a more interesting problem at favorable.

Yes. I misread the vulnerability.
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#10 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 05:42

Scoring: IMP


(1♥) 4♦ (4♥) 5♦
(P) P (5♥) AP


We had the perfect fit for 6♦, should partner have X and bid 5♦/4M ?

I should add, you are sitting in a good place and this is the last board of an IMP game.
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#11 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 05:50

No, partner should not do more. They described their hand with the 4♦ bid and left the decision to you. For all they know you have zero defense and opps are cold for 7♥.

Maybe North was too strong for 4♦. Obviously 4♦ didn't work this time.
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#12 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 05:57

I would dble 5H and expect to beat it.

After looking at the hand where in the world did 4D come from? Why are we passing the 3N level with a decent hand like this? This hand is nothing close to a pre-emptive bid to me and is just shooting craps.
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#13 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 06:57

jukmoi, on Mar 25 2010, 02:05 AM, said:

Partner will hold something like ♠ x ♥ xx ♦ KQxxxxxx ♣ xx. We can probably beat 5♥ by giving a black suit ruff to partner. I believe that imp odds favour bidding though, since 6♦ might even make (partner holds ♠ x ♥ xxx ♦ AQxxxxxx ♣ x, 5♥ might make and 6♦ is unlikely to be more than two down.

you are vulnerable vs nonvulnerable I don't think your holding makes sense under those circumstances as you are also playing IMPS not MP
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#14 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 07:02

jillybean, on Mar 25 2010, 06:42 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP


(1♥) 4♦ (4♥) 5♦
(P) P (5♥) AP


We had the perfect fit for 6♦, should partner have X and bid 5♦/4M ?

I should add, you are sitting in a good place and this is the last board of an IMP game.

personally given the colors and the game type I think pass shows second round control of ♥ that doesn't mean partner will move but they should know that you expected to make 5♦ and expect them to hit this.
"Tell me of your home world, Usul"
the Freman, Chani from the move "Dune"

"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."

George Bernard Shaw
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#15 User is offline   jukmoi 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 07:03

Yes. I misread the vulnerablity. Agree that vul vs not 4♦ is not sensible on ♠x ♥ xx ♦ KQxxxxxx ♣ xx.
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#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 07:22

jillybean, on Mar 25 2010, 06:42 AM, said:

Dealer: West
Vul: N/S
Scoring: IMP
♠ 6
♥ 92
♦ AKQJT752
♣ K7
♠ QJ53
♥ AKQT73
♦  
♣ Q95
♠ KT92
♥ J654
♦ 6
♣ JT84
♠ A874
♥ 8
♦ 9843
♣ A632

(1♥) 4♦ (4♥) 5♦
(P) P (5♥) AP


We had the perfect fit for 6♦, should partner have X and bid 5♦/4M ?

I should add, you are sitting in a good place and this is the last board of an IMP game.

Well - the hand is too strong for a 4D bid.

Withouth the king of clubs you have 8 tricks, which would be perfect
for a red vs. green preempt, with the king the hand is basically one
trick too strong.
So p should have either bid 2D or 5D, 5D is not the worst idea, he
should ask himself, how he would feel, if 4H comes back, if he feels
he has to bid 5D, if he has the feeling than he should do it at once.

If he makes the 5D preempt, than you could argue, that raising to
6D makes sense, since, you would expect making 5D, afterall you
have 3 tricks for p (2Aces, a shortage), so bidding 6 would not be the
worst idea, and you take insurance against making 5H.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#17 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 07:45

I would have bid 2♦ from N. 4♦ is completely disgusting. It can work out but it will cost a lot, like this missed slam for instance. 5♦ (from North) is just mildly disgusting and I would do it sometimes.
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#18 User is offline   mich-b 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 07:53

Wouldnt anyone consider 3♥ (solid minor, asking for a ♥stop) with the North hand?
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#19 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 07:54

it's not bad but I have a stiff spade so generally I wouldn't be happy to bid it when I am this strong and 5 or 6D could make whilst 3NT goes down.
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#20 User is offline   jjbrr 

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Posted 2010-March-25, 08:06

3♥ seems obv to me
OK
bed
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