[gwnn]

MinorKid, on Mar 25 2010, 03:31 PM, said:

If it is game both-minor forcing just bid 2NT and raise to game.

You do know that if you use very very low bids, your opponents will have more space and better judgement and will bid to better contracts than normally.

For example, take the simple case of

1H-(2NT)-?

versus

1H-(4NT)-?

responder gains 9 calls in the first case:

3♣ 3♦ 3♥ 3♠ 3NT
4♣ 4♦ 4♥ 4♠

Now I could also talk about the Fibonacci series or the Gamma function but it is not really necessary. Suffice it to say, "just bidding 2NT and raising to game" is not good enough for a hand like

x

KQJxxx
QJTxxx

or even the same hand with 65 minors and favourable vulnerability.

because intelligent opps do not pass automatically when you bid 2NT. On the contrary, they are quite happy to BID.

[MinorKid]

gwnn, on Mar 31 2010, 03:27 AM, said:

MinorKid, on Mar 25 2010, 03:31 PM, said:

If it is game both-minor forcing just bid 2NT and raise to game.

You do know that if you use very very low bids, your opponents will have more space and better judgement and will bid to better contracts than normally.

For example, take the simple case of

1H-(2NT)-?

versus

1H-(4NT)-?

responder gains 9 calls in the first case:

3♣ 3♦ 3♥ 3♠ 3NT
4♣ 4♦ 4♥ 4♠

Now I could also talk about the Fibonacci series or the Gamma function but it is not really necessary. Suffice it to say, "just bidding 2NT and raising to game" is not good enough for a hand like

x

KQJxxx
QJTxxx

or even the same hand with 65 minors and favourable vulnerability.

because intelligent opps do not pass automatically when you bid 2NT. On the contrary, they are quite happy to BID.

I see your point.
North can simply bid 2♦ and then 4NT for RKCB.

[gwnn]

I was not talking about this hand. I was talking about your statement that 4NT is specific aces. I told you it wasn't.

BTW 2♦ then 4NT is not usually blackwood either, unless partner has shown support.

anyway of course responder gains 10 calls and not 9. lol at gwnn

[Fluffy]

Bidding 4♦ is ridicoulous, at this vulnerability it must be a hand that its close to KQJxxxxx 8th and out as many pointed out.

With the given hand you can:

-Bid 2♦
-Bid 3♥
-Bid 5♦ (I've seen real experts picking this with solid 8 cards nv, it works)


2♦ is the constructive approach, but leaves opponents space to comunicate, 3♥ is a one shot bid that doesn't make the hand justice, we have 8th card and a king after the opener.
5♦ is maybe too comital, but practical bid


Double is horrible, you get to show your suit when it is very late, not to mention that 5♦ over 4♠ from partner is intended as a cuebid.


About the 4NT argument:


I recently won a large swing against a WC player by bidding 4NT instead of 2NT NV vs Vul with

-
xx
KJxxxx
Kxxxx

after partner passed and he opened 1♥.

He had no bid over 5♣ with

Qxxxx
AKQxxx
Ax
-

[helene_t]

Fluffy, on Mar 31 2010, 01:18 PM, said:

3♥ is a one shot bid that doesn't make the hand justice, we have 8th card and a king after the opener.

I don't think 3♥ shows a solid diamond suit and nothing else. With such a hand you just bid 2♦. If p has all three other suits covered and no 4 immediate losers in those suits, he will at least make a game try.

3♥ might show this hand. But I think "in principle" it shows stoppers in both black suits, i.e. all p needs to bid 3NT is a heart stopper.

Even so, 3♥ may be the most practical bid with this hand.

[MinorKid]

Futher comment on 4NTs
With something like
x
-
AQJxxx
KJxxxx

I choose overcalling 2NT.
The reason is the same as the 2♦ in this board.

So 4NT is used for smth else.