[peachy]

jillybean, on Mar 22 2010, 08:49 AM, said:

I showed this hand to a top Cannuck player last night, first I asked what his bid was after 1♣:1♥ - "3♠...hate it but have to"

His answer to my next question, what do you say to people who flatly refuse to splinter with an Ace?, was simple,
"learn to play bridge"

Enough said, I'm throwing this rule out!

Don't throw it out! Generally it is a good rule but there are ALWAYS hands where no call is an honest description and one must pick the call that is the least misdescription. This is a good example.

If you had no splinters at all on the card, then just bid 4H, a balanced powerhouse raise.

[jdonn]

I never fully understood why people are so against splintering with an ace. They act like bidding 4♥, which is both more vague and also a misdescription, is somehow better than 3♠ with the singleton ace. I don't see it.

Easy splinter to me.

[mikeh]

As the 'top cannuck [sic] player' in question, I didn't expound on my comments when jb asked, but a factor in splintering here is that, really, the sequence is near-perfect!

We have no minor Ace....but we are splintering to a level that makes it very, very easy for partner to cooperate with a slam move.

One issue that seems rarely to be explicitly discussed, when talking about splinters, is the distance between our splinter and our game. Thus, splintering into 4♦, when hearts are trump, is a very, very space-consuming bid and in my view should only be done on a narrow range of hand types, since we have no room for exploration below game. My guideline (and I agree with the terminology of guideline, tho some are very strict) is that a splinter into the suit below our game promises either 1st or 2nd round control in the 2 side suits. But when we have this much room (ie after 3♠), we usually rate to be able to clarify our control issues in time. Thus over 4♣ (I am ignoring uses of 3N in the B/I forum), my 4♥ would deny a diamond control, while over 4♦, I don't mind 4♠....it isn't a slam force.

BTW, use of 3N here by responder, whether it be frivilous or serious, would help, but as I say that is not, imo, a B/I issue.

BTW, I also added to jb that my rationale (she didn't want to use my 'learn to play bridge' argument) was that 3♠ was the least evil (ie least distortion).

[nigel_k]

If you splinter with stiff ace then do that, otherwise bid 4♥.

I don't understand the logic that this should be an exception to the 'no splinter with stiff ace' agreement. It's a perfectly normal hand of its type, in both strength and shape. If you believe that not splintering with stiff ace gains in general, then you should believe it gains here.

[jillybean]

I am not a follower of the "no splinter with an ace" rule, I posted this hand in the hope that it would spark some disucssion from both sides and give me more to discuss with partners, I could have done better when asking the question.

[aguahombre]

jillybean, on Mar 21 2010, 10:19 PM, said:

Cascade, on Mar 21 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

Definitely don't splinter since you play those as NF

Haha, or stop playing with pickup experts.

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1♠    Pass  4♥
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Interesting hand to play and only down 4

On this one, you should have a rule not to splinter with a stiff Jack, in case partner leaves it in.

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on Mar 21 2010, 11:19 PM, said:

Cascade, on Mar 21 2010, 07:59 PM, said:

Definitely don't splinter since you play those as NF

Haha, or stop playing with pickup experts.

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     1♠    Pass  4♥
 Pass  Pass  Pass  

Interesting hand to play and only down 4

A friend played in a 1-0 fit on this auction.

Playing standard methods, first choice 3♠, second choice 4♠.

I'm glad I play what I do, as I rebid 2N (GF unbalanced) and over the 3♣ relay, bid 4♥ as a 1435 game force.

[chasetb]

http://www.bridgeguy...26Schogger.html

The reason many don't splinter with an Ace is because of that rule there. I am a part of "Don't splinter with an Ace", but that is because my partner and I play lebensohl over a reverse (responder with a bare mininum bids 2NT as a relay to 3♣). I reverse to see partner's response, then I can choose to jump to 4♥ to play, or cuebid, or something else. Even if I don't have that fancy stuff, I would still bid 2♦ and then jump to 4♥ if partner doesn't show 11+ points on his/her rebid.

[jillybean]

chasetb, on Mar 22 2010, 04:51 PM, said:

http://www.bridgeguy...26Schogger.html

The reason many don't splinter with an Ace is because of that rule there.  I am a part of "Don't splinter with an Ace", but that is because my partner and I play lebensohl over a reverse (responder with a bare mininum bids 2NT as a relay to 3♣).  I reverse to see partner's response, then I can choose to jump to 4♥ to play, or cuebid, or something else.  Even if I don't have that fancy stuff, I would still bid 2♦ and then jump to 4♥ if partner doesn't show 11+ points on his/her rebid.

So, you object to a splinter but recommend reversing into ♦'s with QT6?

[nige1]

jillybean, on Mar 21 2010, 06:55 PM, said:

Scoring: MP

(P) 1♣ (P) 1♥
(P) ?
Do you have any methods to bid this?

---

nige1, on Mar 21 2010, 06:34 PM, said:

IMO, if splinters are off the menu, then 3♠ (cue-bid agreeing ♥) = 10, 4♥ = 7.

jillybean, on Mar 21 2010, 11:17 PM, said:

Splinters are on the menu, but not with an Ace. So 3♠ is out under those rules and 4♥ makes me ill.

If partner has systemic objections to both 3♠ and 4♥ with this hand, then you are backed into a corner. If you must reverse into 2♦, then you need a clear agreement about how to settle in ♥, when partner raises ♦, or prefers ♣ enthusiastically.

[bab9]

aguahombre, on Mar 21 2010, 09:32 PM, said:

bab9, on Mar 21 2010, 08:29 PM, said:

Why not straight into Blackwood or Gerber (depends on if you play 4♣ after a 1♣ opening as being natural or Gerber)?

If you play 4♣ as Gerber, you are able to ask for controls and still stop in 4♥ (if partner bids 4♠ you go looking for slam as they have the missing Aces).

lol

I must have missed the joke. Can you elaborate?

[aguahombre]

bab9, on Mar 22 2010, 08:27 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Mar 21 2010, 09:32 PM, said:

bab9, on Mar 21 2010, 08:29 PM, said:

Why not straight into Blackwood or Gerber (depends on if you play 4♣ after a 1♣ opening as being natural or Gerber)?

If you play 4♣ as Gerber, you are able to ask for controls and still stop in 4♥ (if partner bids 4♠ you go looking for slam as they have the missing Aces).

lol

I must have missed the joke. Can you elaborate?

Sorry, the LOL was inappropriate. I should have stated that there are very few hands where partner responds 1/1 and I would lauch directly into blackwood without eliciting further cooperation. This hand, with a side qTX violates another rule I like about when to ask for aces. I don't have first or second round control of all side suits, and haven't inquired as to whether partner does.

A third reason would be I don't know what to do with the answer, no matter how many he shows.

[Codo]

I think that partner should have no problem after a 4♥ bid. I agree with Mike that no bid here tells the whole story. But I disagree that 3 ♠ is the smallest disortion.

[jdonn]

How is 3♠ a distortion at all? It will accomplish its goal. If partner has xxx Qxxxx KJx Ax you want to be in slam. If partner has KJx Qxxxx xxx Ax then it's too risky to go higher than 4. This is what splinter's are for.

The hand where you can argue against splintering on singleton ace is more like A AQxx Axx Kxxxx because Kxx or KQx of spades or diamonds is probably just as good. But when the shorter side suit is weak then it makes perfect sense to splinter on the singleton ace and frankly I think the arguments against it have been totally unconvincing.

[Codo]

If partner has your example hand, he will reach slam after 4 ♥ anyway.

If partner has KQx, Qxxxx,Axx,xx you may miss slam after your splinter but not after 4 ♥.

[jdonn]

Codo, on Mar 23 2010, 04:16 AM, said:

If partner has your example hand, he will reach slam after 4 ♥ anyway.

You mean the xxx Qxxxx KJx Ax? So you admit you just get too high and often go down with KJx Qxxxx xxx Ax?

I would most certainly not miss slam after a splinter with KQx Qxxxx Axx xx. If opener had the same shape as the hand in this thread but with the spade ace in clubs then you still want to be in slam. So I still see no good argument, sorry.

[bab9]

aguahombre, on Mar 22 2010, 09:34 PM, said:

bab9, on Mar 22 2010, 08:27 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Mar 21 2010, 09:32 PM, said:

bab9, on Mar 21 2010, 08:29 PM, said:

Why not straight into Blackwood or Gerber (depends on if you play 4♣ after a 1♣ opening as being natural or Gerber)?

If you play 4♣ as Gerber, you are able to ask for controls and still stop in 4♥ (if partner bids 4♠ you go looking for slam as they have the missing Aces).

lol

I must have missed the joke. Can you elaborate?

Sorry, the LOL was inappropriate. I should have stated that there are very few hands where partner responds 1/1 and I would lauch directly into blackwood without eliciting further cooperation. This hand, with a side qTX violates another rule I like about when to ask for aces. I don't have first or second round control of all side suits, and haven't inquired as to whether partner does.

A third reason would be I don't know what to do with the answer, no matter how many he shows.

My thought was to use gerber to show partner I have a much better hand than 4♥ (could be I missed judged the strength of the hand). I have seen and played the 1/1 into gerber a couple of times (could be that as relative beginners we are using conventions inappropriately).

What method / convention do you use to ask for controls in the side suits?

My thoughts were if partner responses 4♠ (still only showing 8 HCP), I would be happy to stop in 5♥ and leave it up to partner if he has extra value to put it to 6♥.

[mikeh]

Bab: you are using gerber inappropriately 1x 1M 4♣ when x is not clubs, is a splinter. When x is clubs, many play the convention with no name...4♣ shows a good hand with 6 clubs and 4 card support.

Gerber (which is a better convention than most here would assert) is typically used only directly over a notrump bid...thus 1N 4♣ or 2N 4♣. It is not used, by advanced or expert players, over a suit bid...splinters and other uses are far more valuable.

[bab9]

mikeh, on Mar 23 2010, 10:24 PM, said:

Bab: you are using gerber inappropriately   1x 1M 4♣ when x is not clubs, is a splinter. When x is clubs, many play the convention with no name...4♣ shows a good hand with 6 clubs and 4 card support.

Gerber (which is a better convention than most here would assert) is typically used only directly over a notrump bid...thus 1N 4♣ or 2N 4♣. It is not used, by advanced or expert players, over a suit bid...splinters and other uses are far more valuable.

At the club where I learnt, almost nobody played splinters.

Would you use gerber after a suit fit has been established? If not, what other control conventions would you use?

Is a double jump shift always a splinter?

I am currently playing Roman Key Card Gerber. Is there a better version of Gerber?

[helene_t]

Bab, how are you going to find out if you have slam if partner responds one keycard? If all partner has is an ace and, say, ♠Q, then 5♥ is too much. Then again, if all partner is missing is an ace then of course slam is good.

Better describe you own hand and let partner decide whether to explore slam or not. Then you can avoid the 5-level if partner has a minimum, even if he has an ace.

Ace (or keycard) asking can only be used to find out if you are missing two aces after you have found out that you have enough general values (or the hands fit well enough) for slam. It cannot be used to find out if you have enough values for slam.

If you want an asking bid to find out about general slam values, then ask for the number of controls (where an ace is 2 controls, a king one control).