[Fluffy]

MinorKid, on Mar 16 2010, 03:34 PM, said:

In this board i did not care about partner's shape. So i bid 4NT...
The result... tell you later

this leaves me speechless. When you make a bid you have to have a purpose in mind, 4NT doesn't help you at all on whatever your target is here.

bidding 4NT too much is typical for inexperienced players because that's the only slam tool they know. The sooner you learn other weapons such as splinter, cuebid etc, the better.

Bidding 4NT with a void is even worse than the usual wrong 4NT, you take all your bidding space to ask a question for wich you don't want the answer.

[Bbradley62]

Codo, on Mar 16 2010, 09:55 AM, said:

As a beginner, you may shoudl choose a simple 4 ♥. But the hand is strong enough for 3 ♠ too, espacially if you have enough tools to find out below 4 ♥ whether partners hand is suitable or not.

While I generally think beginners should keep auctions simple, avoiding the 3♠ bid is not a good example of this. Even if you maintain that, for beginners, each bid should have the simplest reasonable meaning, 3♠ can't possibly be anything except a splinter, so you should use that bid when appropriate.

[P_Marlowe]

3S.

You have fit, you show it, espesially since you have a major suit
fit, and the auction got competitive.

Since you are strong enough, that slam should have reasonable chances
if p has no wastage in spade and moderate values, you are too strong
to just bid 4H, so you need to make a stronger move.

I prefer to bid 3S, since this makes it clear to p, that you are seriously
bidding game, which may be important, if they compete with 4S, and that
you have slam interest.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

MinorKid, on Mar 16 2010, 08:51 AM, said:

If slam is on ... are you sure it is in ♥ ?

Anybody play fit jump here?

I guess a 4D still has the same meaning, even after the 3S call.

With no intervention - 4D would show a 6 carder and the heart fit,
but one usually requires a better suit, AKQxxx.
That is the classical meaning, but there is a approach, which reserves
the 4D bid for 5422 hands, the reason being, that with a 6 card suit
and 4 card support, you have a splinter.

The splinter basically gurantees 5diamonds, ... you could be 4441, but
that is the only sensible distribution, and since you make a slam move,
the diamond suit wont be rubbish, so the splinter is a fit jump, sort of.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[MinorKid]

I am just curious. If you splinter would partner bid ♦ with ♦ Kxx ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I come to auctions that splinter the opponent's suits there's oftenly a group of tables bid something like a fit jump. i.e. jump to a suit immediate the overcall , showing a >5 card bidded suit with at least 2 honors.

I throught "splinter" and "fit jumps" are a pair! But here i met all fans of "Splinter"

[MinorKid]

P_Marlowe, on Mar 16 2010, 04:47 PM, said:

MinorKid, on Mar 16 2010, 08:51 AM, said:

If slam is on ... are you sure it is in ♥ ?

Anybody play fit jump here?

I guess a 4D still has the same meaning, even after the 3S call.

With no intervention - 4D would show a 6 carder and the heart fit,
but one usually requires a better suit, AKQxxx.
That is the classical meaning, but there is a approach, which reserves
the 4D bid for 5422 hands, the reason being, that with a 6 card suit
and 4 card support, you have a splinter.

The splinter basically gurantees 5diamonds, ... you could be 4441, but
that is the only sensible distribution, and since you make a slam move,
the diamond suit wont be rubbish, so the splinter is a fit jump, sort of.

With kind regards
Marlowe

If i hold a solid suit i will elect to "bid ♦ 3 times."

[P_Marlowe]

MinorKid, on Mar 16 2010, 10:27 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Mar 16 2010, 04:47 PM, said:

MinorKid, on Mar 16 2010, 08:51 AM, said:

If slam is on ... are you sure it is in ♥ ?

Anybody play fit jump here?

I guess a 4D still has the same meaning, even after the 3S call.

With no intervention - 4D would show a 6 carder and the heart fit,
but one usually requires a better suit, AKQxxx.
That is the classical meaning, but there is a approach, which reserves
the 4D bid for 5422 hands, the reason being, that with a 6 card suit
and 4 card support, you have a splinter.

The splinter basically gurantees 5diamonds, ... you could be 4441, but
that is the only sensible distribution, and since you make a slam move,
the diamond suit wont be rubbish, so the splinter is a fit jump, sort of.

With kind regards
Marlowe

If i hold a solid suit i will elect to "bid ♦ 3 times."

Hi,

assuming you talk about the req. for a 4D bid:

The 4D bid showes a solid suit and a heart fit, it is up to partnership
agreement to decide, what suit holding qualifies to be called "solid".

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

MinorKid, on Mar 16 2010, 09:48 PM, said:

I am just curious. If you splinter would partner bid ♦ with ♦ Kxx ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When I come to auctions that splinter the opponent's suits there's oftenly a group of tables bid something like a fit jump.

I throught "splinter" and "fit jumps" are a pair! But here i met all fans of "Splinter"

Why should p bid diamonds with Kxx in diamonds?

Usually a 4-4 fit playes better than a 5-3 fit, this does
not always hold true, but reasonable often.

Partner will upgrade the K, he will also upgrade the King,
if he happens to hold only Kx in diamonds, or even the
single king of diamonds alone.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

Bbradley62, on Mar 17 2010, 04:34 AM, said:

Codo, on Mar 16 2010, 09:55 AM, said:

As  a beginner, you may shoudl choose a simple 4 ♥. But the hand is strong enough for 3 ♠ too, espacially if you have enough tools to find out below 4 ♥ whether partners hand is suitable or not.

While I generally think beginners should keep auctions simple, avoiding the 3♠ bid is not a good example of this. Even if you maintain that, for beginners, each bid should have the simplest reasonable meaning, 3♠ can't possibly be anything except a splinter, so you should use that bid when appropriate.

Of course 3 spade should be a splinter. The bid is easy.
But after a splinter the bidding is not over. You surely have tools to limit your hand later, but a beginner has not.
And obviously we disagree whether this should be the part of the game a beginner should study with high priority or not.

[MinorKid]

So far very most of us bid 3♠ (and that is my software's answer)

Scoring: IMP

The bidding is simply
1♦ {-} 1♥ {1♠}
3♠ {Dbl} 5N {-}
6♥ {-} - {-}

Edited on 18 MAR

---

Here's what had happened in my table
me
1♦ {-} 1♥ {1♠}
3♦ {3♠} 4♦ {-}
4♥ {-} 4♠ {-}
4NT {-} 5♥! {-} ♠A + ♦K
5NT {-} 6NT {-} 2 outside Kings
7♦ {-} - {-}

Note that my 3♦ did not deny any ♥ but show ♥ support of some sort and it garantees some honors in bidded suit.

and it is the "4NT" table
1♦ {-} 1♥ {1♠}
4NT!! {-} 5♦ {-} Simple Blackwood
5NT!! {-} 6NT {-}
7NT!! {-} - {Dbl}!!
- {-} -

Please don't laugh at the hand or my biddings...

[vuroth]

So? Were hearts 2-2?

[jjbrr]

What is the auction under "the bidding is simply" and then some nonsense?

4♠ is hopeless. redbl would show 1st round control then it can go 4♣-4♦.

I admit I'd never get to grand, and wouldn't feel too bad about that!

[bab9]

It seems I'm in the minority. I thought the best bid would be <double>, showing a genuine 2♥ call. If partner is minimum he simple bids 2♥, any other bid could be taken as game force. Can use your next bid to show a stronger hand (provided you play take-out doubles).

Would be happy to hear why people think a <double> is not a good bid in this situation.


Being a relative beginner, I was taught that if you have 10+ HCP your response to an opening bid should be at the two level, unless supporting partners suit. If have discussed splinters with a number of partner more experienced then I am, and:
- most don't play them
- some thought a splinter was shown by a double jump shift
- others thought a splinter was shown by a triple jump shift.

If you are going to use splinters, make sure you and partner have a clear understanding of how to show them.

One partner I play with has a convention where if there is inference, a 2NT bid is game force, and can be used as a baby blackwood.

[mike777]

As a B/I I find with difficult hands often to cuebid or double is a reasonable choice.


So here I cuebid spades.

Try it and see if you like these two options with hands that you feel are difficult.

[MinorKid]

bab9, on Mar 17 2010, 09:58 PM, said:

It seems I'm in the minority. I thought the best bid would be <double>, showing a genuine 2♥ call. If partner is minimum he simple bids 2♥, any other bid could be taken as game force. Can use your next bid to show a stronger hand (provided you play take-out doubles).

Would be happy to hear why people think a <double> is not a good bid in this situation.


Being a relative beginner, I was taught that if you have 10+ HCP your response to an opening bid should be at the two level, unless supporting partners suit. If have discussed splinters with a number of partner more experienced then I am, and:
- most don't play them
- some thought a splinter was shown by a double jump shift
- others thought a splinter was shown by a triple jump shift.

If you are going to use splinters, make sure you and partner have a clear understanding of how to show them.

One partner I play with has a convention where if there is inference, a 2NT bid is game force, and can be used as a baby blackwood.

Double then rebid 3♦

Another beautiful description of your hand i think.

[MinorKid]

jjbrr, on Mar 17 2010, 10:02 AM, said:

What is the auction under "the bidding is simply" and then some nonsense?

4♠ is hopeless. redbl would show 1st round control then it can go 4♣-4♦.

I admit I'd never get to grand, and wouldn't feel too bad about that!

thx

[P_Marlowe]

bab9, on Mar 17 2010, 09:58 PM, said:

It seems I'm in the minority.  I thought the best bid would be <double>, showing a genuine 2♥ call.  If partner is minimum he simple bids 2♥, any other bid could be taken as game force.  Can use your next bid to show a stronger hand (provided you play take-out doubles).

Would be happy to hear why people think a <double> is not a good bid in this situation.
 

Being a relative beginner, I was taught that if you have 10+ HCP your response to an opening bid should be at the two level, unless supporting partners suit.  If have discussed splinters with a number of partner more experienced then I am, and:
    - most don't play them
    - some thought a splinter was shown by a double jump shift
    - others thought a splinter was shown by a triple jump shift.

If you are going to use splinters, make sure you and partner have a clear understanding of how to show them.

One partner I play with has a convention where if there is inference, a 2NT bid is game force, and can be used as a baby blackwood.

Well, you list possible misunderstandings regarding 3S.

But you overlook the fact, that making a X after the 1S overcall
is also not foolproof.
Lots of peoble play X as support X, i.e. showing 3 card support,
so making a double followed by 3D would show 6 diamonds and
precisly 3hearts.
Other peoble play X after 1S as T/O, short spades, i.e. there is also
some promised club support.

So, if you make the X, be sure, you are on the same page as p.

And I did not mention the fact, that for most 3D would be nonforcing, i.e.
you may end up playing 3D and going down, 4H or even 6H being cold.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[bab9]

Quote

But you overlook the fact, that making a X after the 1S overcall
is also not foolproof.
Lots of peoble play X as support X, i.e. showing 3 card support,
so making a double followed by 3D would show 6 diamonds and
precisly 3hearts.
Other peoble play X after 1S as T/O, short spades, i.e. there is also
some promised club support.

So, if you make the X, be sure, you are on the same page as p.

And I did not mention the fact, that for most 3D would be nonforcing, i.e.
you may end up playing 3D and going down, 4H or even 6H being cold.

I agree that the X would normally show 3 card support.

Personally, I would have doubled then rebid 4♥ and not a ♦. The reason for the double was to delay to let partner better describe their hand, and to try and show a stronger hand (by rebidding after a double).

Why rush when you know you have game (as long as you can make forcing bids)? Also you know you have a major fit, why not delay to see if you have a double fit.

I agree that 3♦ would be non-forcing, especially if you bid 1♦ 3♦. By bidding 1♦ X 3♦ partner should realise there are extra points in the hand.

I have played with a number of partners which would take-out the 3♦ to play in 3NT.

[cherdanno]

bab9, on Mar 18 2010, 10:16 PM, said:

Quote

But you overlook the fact, that making a X after the 1S overcall
is also not foolproof.
Lots of peoble play X as support X, i.e. showing 3 card support,
so making a double followed by 3D would show 6 diamonds and
precisly 3hearts.
Other peoble play X after 1S as T/O, short spades, i.e. there is also
some promised club support.

So, if you make the X, be sure, you are on the same page as p.

And I did not mention the fact, that for most 3D would be nonforcing, i.e.
you may end up playing 3D and going down, 4H or even 6H being cold.

I agree that the X would normally show 3 card support.

Personally, I would have doubled then rebid 4♥ and not a ♦. The reason for the double was to delay to let partner better describe their hand, and to try and show a stronger hand (by rebidding after a double).

Why rush when you know you have game (as long as you can make forcing bids)? Also you know you have a major fit, why not delay to see if you have a double fit.

I agree that 3♦ would be non-forcing, especially if you bid 1♦ 3♦. By bidding 1♦ X 3♦ partner should realise there are extra points in the hand.

I have played with a number of partners which would take-out the 3♦ to play in 3NT.

Better rush to describe your hand than to misdescribe your hand slowly! After a
- support double you can never show more than 3 hearts,
- takeout double you can never show a hand with more than 3 hearts
- penalty double you can never show less than 4 spades anymore.

Double with a known fit does not exist in this auction unless you have very non-standard agreements.

[MinorKid]

So ... after splinter how do you go to 7♦ if you want to?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I emailed my partner today about that. He said if he bid a direct 4♦ that is a honor (fitting) bid for slam. (Did you heard of that convension?) His reason is that we would never play 3NT after a splinter so we would use 3NT bid as a control cue bid request, while a immediate "cue-bid" shows honors in the suit.