[kenberg]

With everyone in the auction it went 1♠ 2♥ 4♠ 4NT

Not surprisingly, partner and I have not discussed this auction. I, the 2♥ bidder, thought it to be rkc. Partner, the 4NT bidder, intended it as a minor suit take out. Assuming no discussion, what would you take it to be?

Note: We play responsive doubles through 3♠ so that option was unavailable to him.

Further, if it is relevant, I am pretty sure we would both think that 1♠ pass 4♠ 4NT would be a two-suited take out.

At any rate my view was (and is) that partner can well have a hand where he wants to use rkc on this auction and so, lacking discussion to the contrary, that's what it is.

For amusement, I give you the rest of the auction:

1♠ 2♥ 4♠ 4NT
Pass 5♠ X Pass
Pass 6♣ X Pass
X! Pass Pass Pass

After 6♣, rho asked the meaning of the call. I replied that I had no idea. She doubled, I passed her partner doubled (sort of a redouble I guess) and partner passed again. Rho, I trust humorously, asked if we had any agreement about this auction!

As it turned out, there were 11 tricks available in clubs, since I had good support, and ten in spades. Not many in hearts.

[jjbrr]

I would have responded number of Keycards also. I think a hand that wants to bid both minors without having ♥ support and without having sufficient defense is pretty rare. 4NT to me should be something like x KQxx AKxxxxx x.

[ArtK78]

Makes more sense to me to be RKCB than minor suits.

What else is partner supposed to do with:

x
Qxxxx
KQxx
AKx

If partner has the minor suits, it would be nice if 4NT were available for that purpose. But there is no assurance that there is a minor suit fit. In fact, given partner's heart bid, the chances that there is a minor suit fit are reduced.

I would think that the chances of producing a slam in hearts on this auction are good enough so that it makes sense to use 4NT as RKCB.

[gnasher]

Two (or three) places to play. That is, either an offensive hand with 5-5 in the minors, or something like 3-6 in hearts and a minor.

jbrr said:

I think a hand that wants to bid both minors without having ♥  support and without having sufficient defense is pretty rare

Whereas a Blackwood hand comes up all the time?

I've bid 4NT as takeout in this auction several times. I can't remember ever wanting to ask for keycards.

[jdonn]

I much prefer blackwood. Minors can double. Very distributional with minors and no interest in defending is unfortunate but rare, and in that case you may have to bid a 6 card minor and hope for the best. I don't think wanting to try for slam is rare at all and keycard seems like the best way to do it.

[Fluffy]

2 suiter opposite 1 suiter = many downs

Even if you had 4NT avaible you aren't likelly wanna use it unless it is very extreme.

blackwood on the other hand is better.

[gwnn]

I think keycard comes up more often and is more useful but not by a huge margin. I would be OK with agreeing "4NT always 2 places to play in highly competitive auctions" or something.

[kenrexford]

I lean heavily minors.

[PhantomSac]

Def with gnasher on this one.

"Minors can X" is not very useful with extreme shape, partner is passing a lot, and might even bid 5H over a double.

How about keycard can guess a number of hearts pretty often.

[PhantomSac]

gwnn, on Mar 5 2010, 03:13 PM, said:

I think keycard comes up more often and is more useful but not by a huge margin. I would be OK with agreeing "4NT always 2 places to play in highly competitive auctions" or something.

Even if keycard is more frequent (I might agree), I don't see how it could be more useful when it comes up.

[CSGibson]

Solution: 4N is takeout, and 5 clubs is super-Gerber! Give up those rare 1 suiters with clubs in order to cater to 1-1-5-6 hands and hands that want to key-card over an overcall.

[whereagles]

without any previous discussion I would say RKCB. Especially since 4S could be a weakish bid.

[Fluffy]

PhantomSac, on Mar 6 2010, 03:26 AM, said:

gwnn, on Mar 5 2010, 03:13 PM, said:

I think keycard comes up more often and is more useful but not by a huge margin. I would be OK with agreeing "4NT always 2 places to play in highly competitive auctions" or something.

Even if keycard is more frequent (I might agree), I don't see how it could be more useful when it comes up.

because I think introducing 2 suits at the 5 level for wich partner is likelly not to have a fit is dangerous. The only time I tried that 4NT thing, I should had scored -800 vs +100. Its just 1 hand, but its all the hands I played on this context

[FrancesHinden]

Where we've discused it I play it as either both minors or a good 5H bid. This has come up. I've never had a hand where I wanted to keycard on this auction. Admittedly, the hands where I've wanted to do either are very rare.

Yes, I do play double as take-out, but it gets passed quite often.

[JanM]

I agree with Frances - 4NT on this auction is initially assumed to be a minor 2-suiter, but 5♥ over partner's 5m shows that it was a slammish 5♥ bid. Sure it would be nice to be able to do everything, and there will sometimes be hands where you want to know about keycards, but when the opponents take away so much room, you have to choose what you think will be most useful most often, and we've chosen Takeout. For me, Double would be "values without support" and partner could bid over it with a lot of shape but would usually leave it in.

[Codo]

Yes 4 NT is minors or strong raise to me too.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Playing in a regular partnership, 4NT is certainly not RKCB, and it is also
not natural.
So you either go with 2 places to play (in the given scenario this would be
the minors) or a strong raise to 5H, to generate a FP seq. in case they bid
over 5H.

I think the later makes more sense, and will come up more often, but I
would suggest, that you have some generic rules to resolve the issue.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenberg]

Either minors or a strong raise had not occurred to me, but I can see the merits. If they continue to 5S before we sort out which, there might be some ambiguity here, whoever does the doubling. But often I imagine it works well.


I honestly had not expected such a diversity of views. I expected either, yeah sure it's rkc or you're nuts of course it's minors.

I'll report back to partner.

[cloa513]

What about using 5♣ as two suit in minors, more likely than a natural 5♣.

[Fluffy]

cloa513, on Mar 8 2010, 12:46 PM, said:

What about using 5♣ as two suit in minors, more likely than a natural 5♣.

well, nobody cares about me saying so, but I insist , for your 2 suiter to be worth showing at the 5 level opposite a 1 suiter overcall, it needs to be very extreme, like 6-6. For a 5 club natural bid to be ok you require much less.