Logical Alternatives? ACBL
#101
Posted 2010-March-15, 07:50
I would make another point, though. This isn't a regulation we're talking about. It's an interpretation of law by (technically) a Zonal Authority. In fact, the ACBL asserts the right to change the law in whatever way it sees fit, within its jurisdiction. So the ACBL can, it claims, define "logical alternative" in whatever way it likes, notwithstanding Law 16B1{b}, and notwithstanding a statement (should one be made) by the WBF that the ACBL's definition is incorrect in law.
I suppose that if the ACBL can do whatever it likes, it can change the meaning of alternative to "one or more choices", too.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#102
Posted 2010-March-15, 20:17
blackshoe said:
Oh, one can plausibly argue that if three possibilities A, B and C exist, then: B is an alternative to A and so is C; A is an alternative to B and so is C; A is an alternative to C and so is B.
Pedant though I am, I don't really mind the extension of the meaning of "alternative" to situations in which there exist more than two possibilities.
What I do mind is the notion that if only one possibility exists, it can be described as an "alternative" to anything at all. It cannot, and so to describe it is an error. mjj29 appears to me to fall into this error when he says that it is OK to describe X as an alternative to "whatever other LAs there may _or may not_ be" [his emphasis]. If there are none, then X is not an alternative. If there are, then if X is suggested by UI it may not be selected, regardless of whether it is also suggested by AI. And if X is deemed an alternative merely by virtue of having been selected, then...
And sealed the Law by vote,
It little matters what they thought -
We hang for what they wrote.
#103
Posted 2010-March-16, 02:09
dburn, on Mar 15 2010, 09:17 PM, said:
blackshoe said:
Oh, one can plausibly argue that if three possibilities A, B and C exist, then: B is an alternative to A and so is C; A is an alternative to B and so is C; A is an alternative to C and so is B.
Pedant though I am, I don't really mind the extension of the meaning of "alternative" to situations in which there exist more than two possibilities.
What I do mind is the notion that if only one possibility exists, it can be described as an "alternative" to anything at all. It cannot, and so to describe it is an error. mjj29 appears to me to fall into this error when he says that it is OK to describe X as an alternative to "whatever other LAs there may _or may not_ be" [his emphasis]. If there are none, then X is not an alternative. If there are, then if X is suggested by UI it may not be selected, regardless of whether it is also suggested by AI. And if X is deemed an alternative merely by virtue of having been selected, then...
OK, so in that case it is a poorly worded minute that should read "For the purposes of judging the available logical alternatives for law 16 the action selection at the table is to be deemed logical whether or not it meets the criteria for 'logical alternative' which is given in law 16", because that's clearly what was meant as your interpretation of it is insane.
#104
Posted 2010-March-16, 03:07
mjj29, on Mar 16 2010, 09:09 AM, said:
dburn, on Mar 15 2010, 09:17 PM, said:
blackshoe said:
Oh, one can plausibly argue that if three possibilities A, B and C exist, then: B is an alternative to A and so is C; A is an alternative to B and so is C; A is an alternative to C and so is B.
Pedant though I am, I don't really mind the extension of the meaning of "alternative" to situations in which there exist more than two possibilities.
What I do mind is the notion that if only one possibility exists, it can be described as an "alternative" to anything at all. It cannot, and so to describe it is an error. mjj29 appears to me to fall into this error when he says that it is OK to describe X as an alternative to "whatever other LAs there may _or may not_ be" [his emphasis]. If there are none, then X is not an alternative. If there are, then if X is suggested by UI it may not be selected, regardless of whether it is also suggested by AI. And if X is deemed an alternative merely by virtue of having been selected, then...
OK, so in that case it is a poorly worded minute that should read "For the purposes of judging the available logical alternatives for law 16 the action selection at the table is to be deemed logical whether or not it meets the criteria for 'logical alternative' which is given in law 16", because that's clearly what was meant as your interpretation of it is insane.
May I remind you of the actual text in Law 16B1a: .....the partner may not choose from among logical alternatives one that could demonstrably have been suggested over another by the extraneous information (the emphasizes are mine)
The law doesn't say that a player may not use an alternative that is suggested by UI; it says suggested over another.
And besides the law is written so that it only applies when there are more than one alternative; it uses the plural form alternatives.
This discussion on whether or not a single possibility is an alternative appears meaningless to me for the application of Law 16.
#105
Posted 2010-March-16, 07:40
Sven wouldn't do that. Neither would I. But I would not be at all surprised to see someone do it, particularly in North America.
BTW, there is no "minute" on this, at least not yet. Jan reported a decision that was made at a meeting three days ago — it will be some time before any official minutes are available to most of us.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#106
Posted 2010-March-16, 08:43
Only if the chosen action is suggested over an LA by the UI is there any reason to adjust. In such a case long discussions in the past suggest that most TDs consider it right to adjust, giving one of about five different legal bases for that decision. I am one such TD.
I do not really see the worry over this ACBL minute. Some TDs have always followed that line anyway, and most TDs would like to be told what to do in a specific type of situation: in the ACBL there is now a legal base for doing what a majority want to do, so fair enough.
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#107
Posted 2010-March-16, 15:20
blackshoe, on Mar 15 2010, 01:50 PM, said:
Does it really? How depressing.
There is definitely only one choice, however many possibilitiies, alternatives or options there may be.
Chambers' dictionary defines alternative as "either of a pair, or any of a set, of possibilities"
#108
Posted 2010-March-16, 16:43
FrancesHinden, on Mar 16 2010, 10:20 PM, said:
blackshoe, on Mar 15 2010, 01:50 PM, said:
Does it really? How depressing.
No, not as far as I can see:
http://www.merriam-w...ary/alternative
Quote
Function: noun
Date: 1624
1 a : a proposition or situation offering a choice between two or more things only one of which may be chosen b : an opportunity for deciding between two or more courses or propositions
2 a : one of two or more things, courses, or propositions to be chosen b : something which can be chosen instead <the only alternative to intervention>
3 : alternative rock music
Sadly, it then rather spoils things by saying
Quote
#109
Posted 2010-March-16, 18:45
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#110
Posted 2010-March-17, 03:05
blackshoe, on Mar 17 2010, 01:45 AM, said:
Frances's objection was to your use of the word "choice". The "things", "courses" and "propositions" referred to by your dictionary are not "choices".
Perhaps this will make things clearer. It's from the OED, in case anyone else thinks that Frances's Scrabble Word Book lacks the necessary authority.
Compact OED said:
noun one of two or more available possibilities.
...
choice
noun 1 an act of choosing. 2 the right or ability to choose. 3 a range from which to choose. 4 something chosen.
#111
Posted 2010-March-17, 03:40
#112
Posted 2010-March-17, 05:32
#113
Posted 2010-March-17, 06:02
It is no more correct to say "we have several choices" than to say "we have an alternative of actions".
#114
Posted 2010-March-17, 06:16
The expressions 'how much choice did you have' and 'how many choices did you have can be equivalent (though of course they may not be depending on context.
I would not regard it as American to think that choices, options and alternatives could be used as equivalents in Bridge.
#115
Posted 2010-March-17, 07:14
Keep in mind that if there's a way for somebody to screw up applying this new definition, somebody will.
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean