[Fluffy]

I was just wondering, is there any strong hand worth being played as an alternative in the 2♦ multi when playing a strong club system?

[the hog]

If you don't play 1C 1D 1H as forcing, then yes, you could include a 20-21 point hand in 2D. This makes 1C 1D 2NT 22-23

[straube]

I don't think I'd include a strong hand in Multi. If you did, you couldn't have auctions like...
2D-P (diamond bust)
2D-4H-p/c

Also, a 2D that is a big NT means that you're preempting your own auction. 2N is often called "the slam killer" because you can't find fits cheaply.

Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D.

Also, don't be tempted to put strong 4441s there. Too high.

[glen]

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ...

They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors.

[straube]

glen, on Feb 23 2010, 01:09 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ...

They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors.

I didn't realize. I thought they used 2H for short diamonds where Multi was permitted.

[PhantomSac]

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 01:56 AM, said:

glen, on Feb 23 2010, 01:09 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ...

They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors.

I didn't realize. I thought they used 2H for short diamonds where Multi was permitted.

They did this a long time ago but not recently. They thought multi was a big loser against good opps. They also scratched their 9-12 NT for the same reason.

[straube]

PhantomSac, on Feb 23 2010, 02:40 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 01:56 AM, said:

glen, on Feb 23 2010, 01:09 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ...

They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors.

I didn't realize. I thought they used 2H for short diamonds where Multi was permitted.

They did this a long time ago but not recently. They thought multi was a big loser against good opps. They also scratched their 9-12 NT for the same reason.

Really? They don't play 9-12 at favorable?

[Free]

No, they play 14-16, and in some situations 15-17.

[PhantomSac]

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 02:59 AM, said:

PhantomSac, on Feb 23 2010, 02:40 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 01:56 AM, said:

glen, on Feb 23 2010, 01:09 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ...

They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors.

I didn't realize. I thought they used 2H for short diamonds where Multi was permitted.

They did this a long time ago but not recently. They thought multi was a big loser against good opps. They also scratched their 9-12 NT for the same reason.

Really? They don't play 9-12 at favorable?

Long ago scratched...seems like you have a quite old version of their system.

[WellSpyder]

Fluffy, on Feb 22 2010, 10:29 PM, said:

I was just wondering, is there any strong hand worth being played as an alternative in the 2♦ multi when playing a strong club system?

Seems like it is easy to come up with reasons why you might not want to do this, but I must admit I am not entirely convinced.

The Hog's point about whether or not 1♣-1♦;1♥ is forcing is an important one, I think. I don't play this as forcing since my strong club is actually a two-way club and we need a way of stopping with the weaker hands, and I think the option of including a strong balanced hand in the multi is very helpful. It is all very well to call strong 2N bids "slam killers" but it is even worse if you need to jump to 3N after 1♣-1♦ to show, say, 24-25 - putting one of the ranges within the multi avoids this.

I'm also not convinced by the warning to avoid strong 4441s. On some hands you will certainly risk getting uncomfortably high, but at least you will have a fair idea of the most playable (least unplayable?) contract. And, of course, one of the main reasons for including such hands within the multi is not just to help get these hands across but also to rule them out in auctions that don't start with the multi...

[straube]

PhantomSac, on Feb 23 2010, 03:07 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 02:59 AM, said:

PhantomSac, on Feb 23 2010, 02:40 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 01:56 AM, said:

glen, on Feb 23 2010, 01:09 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 12:11 AM, said:

... Meckwell uses 2N as 20-21 and they do alright but they don't (I think) combine strong meanings with 2D. ...

They didn't have strong meanings when they played Multi, which they no longer do, retreating to short ♦ 2♦ and weak twos in the majors.

I didn't realize. I thought they used 2H for short diamonds where Multi was permitted.

They did this a long time ago but not recently. They thought multi was a big loser against good opps. They also scratched their 9-12 NT for the same reason.

Really? They don't play 9-12 at favorable?

Long ago scratched...seems like you have a quite old version of their system.

Yes. The notes are way old but I don't know where to find new ones. Thanks for the update. I won't bother trying to play the weak NT fav now.

[Free]

google for "ecats bridge" and you'll find their CC from the 2009 Bermuda Bowl in the document store.

[CamHenry]

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 09:50 AM, said:

Yes. The notes are way old but I don't know where to find new ones. Thanks for the update. I won't bother trying to play the weak NT fav now.

I don't know what strength opponents you play against; I'm a middling club player myself and only rarely play against anyone any good. The 9-11 NT that we play is a big winner against the weaker opps, and still gains against the intermediate/advanced players. If you have weak opponents, I'd recommend it!

[bigtrain]

The major reason Meckwell dropped the 10-12 NT was that it distorted their constructive auctions. Dropping the other NT ranges 1 point was something they found was major negative.

Multi is another thing entirely. The reasons that Multi and transfer preempts were dropped are numerous, and clear regardless of system.

[straube]

bigtrain, on Feb 23 2010, 06:52 PM, said:

The major reason Meckwell dropped the 10-12 NT was that it distorted their constructive auctions. Dropping the other NT ranges 1 point was something they found was major negative.

Multi is another thing entirely. The reasons that Multi and transfer preempts were dropped are numerous, and clear regardless of system.

But they could have just gone 1N=11-13 and 1D-1M, 1N=14-16 and it wouldn't have impacted their club at all. Weak NTs tend to destroy everyone's auctions. They might have concluded that they were hurt more than the opponents. I'm glad to know they only use strong NT 'cause I like the 14-16 (or good 13-bad 16) at all vulnerabilities.

[akhare]

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 08:02 PM, said:

But they could have just gone 1N=11-13 and 1D-1M, 1N=14-16 and it wouldn't have impacted their club at all.  Weak NTs tend to destroy everyone's auctions.  They might have concluded that they were hurt more than the opponents.  I'm glad to know they only use strong NT 'cause I like the 14-16 (or good 13-bad 16) at all vulnerabilities.

Has anyone looked at the following study of NT ranges?

http://www.migry.com/Articles%20and%20othe...he%20winner.pdf

Personally, I find it difficult to see how 10-13 (or even 11-13) can be bad for us at favorable, but I don't have any concrete data to back it up.

Edit: The obvious downside is when we don't buy the contract and they land in a vulnerable game, which they can play nearly DD, but how often does that happen? Besides, wouldn't the 12-13 point balanced hands be opened at the other table anyway?

[bigtrain]

It's not the weak NT range - it's the fact that balanced 16s have to be included in the 1C opener.

[straube]

akhare said:

Has anyone looked at the following study of NT ranges?

http://www.migry.com...he%20winner.pdf

I don't think this study answers whether it is better to play weak or strong NTs.

It possibly answers the question "Which NT range gains the most IMPs on average" but
1) it assumes that the caliber of players is even for the different ranges when it's possible that (for example) folks who open 10-12 are stronger than folks who open 16-18 and 2) it doesn't break down the results by vulnerability (at least for us).

Even if we accept that 10-12 picks up more IMPs on average than other ranges, the study doesn't show what happens when 10-12ers bid their other balanced hands. One has to look at both together. How much better did we do on the weak NTs vs how much worse did we do opening 1 of a suit with the strong NTs.

Probably 10-12 NV was a big winner for Meckwell when they opened 1N, but they probably comparatively lost on 1C and 1D openings.

[whereagles]

Fluffy, on Feb 23 2010, 03:29 AM, said:

I was just wondering, is there any strong hand worth being played as an alternative in the 2♦ multi when playing a strong club system?

The original version of multi I learned had a strong 4441 variant of 15-24 hcp.

You probably won't need such a wide range playing strong club, so you might want to do something like 19+ (with less, bid via 1♣).

The other option is, as others said, to dump some big NT hand there, though I really think if you could do with no strong hand, just leave it open, so that pard can pass 2♦ and wreck some havoc every now and then.

[Free]

straube, on Feb 24 2010, 02:02 AM, said:

bigtrain, on Feb 23 2010, 06:52 PM, said:

The major reason Meckwell dropped the 10-12 NT was that it distorted their constructive auctions.  Dropping the other NT ranges 1 point was something they found was major negative.

Multi is another thing entirely.  The reasons that Multi and transfer preempts were dropped are numerous, and clear regardless of system.

But they could have just gone 1N=11-13 and 1D-1M, 1N=14-16 and it wouldn't have impacted their club at all. Weak NTs tend to destroy everyone's auctions. They might have concluded that they were hurt more than the opponents. I'm glad to know they only use strong NT 'cause I like the 14-16 (or good 13-bad 16) at all vulnerabilities.

Not sure about this, but maybe they had problems with competitive auctions after 1♦ when playing mini NT.