[jukmoi]

Here it is common to use balanced 21-23 hcp as a part of multi. It is true that you cant pass 2♦ using that but IMO that is not much of a loss. And it frees 2NT for some other "wonderfull" use like bad pre-emt in a minor.

Disadvantage of multi is that normal weak twos are more effective enableing responder to bid direct 4M more often.

[Fluffy]

I see, passing 2♦ is good so you don't want a storng option.

We are handling all strong NT hands, so not a problem there, in fact that's the whole point on a strong club system IMO is finding the slams with the big balanced hands.

Maybe a strong hand with diamonds then?, something very precise like solid diamonds with spade void and something else could be playable

[Free]

Fluffy, on Feb 24 2010, 10:18 PM, said:

I see, passing 2♦ is good so you don't want a storng option.

We are handling all strong NT hands, so not a problem there, in fact that's the whole point on a strong club system IMO is finding the slams with the big balanced hands.

Maybe a strong hand with diamonds then?, something very precise like solid diamonds with spade void and something else could be playable

The main advantage of not including strong hands is the ability for responder to preempt heavily. Being able to pass 2♦ is a nice bonus, but is not why you play minimulti in the first place.

Suppose you have 4-4M and partner opens 2♦, you can bid at 4-level without problems. Include a strong balanced hand (or strong with a m or whatever) and you can't do that anymore.

The only strong hand types you might want to consider are strong singlesuiters in a Major (or perhaps 2-suiters with at least 1 Major). Now responder can still preempt, hopefully opener won't have problems now.

[jukmoi]

We allways pre-empt heavily assuming opener has the weak variation. Admittedly 2♦-4♥-4NT is not a thing of beauty but it never seem to go that way.

[Free]

jukmoi, on Feb 25 2010, 11:22 AM, said:

We allways pre-empt heavily assuming opener has the weak variation. Admittedly 2♦-4♥-4NT is not a thing of beauty but it never seem to go that way.

You clearly don't play enough, or shuffle poorly

[helene_t]

Fluffy, on Feb 24 2010, 10:18 PM, said:

in fact that's the whole point on a strong club system IMO is finding the slams with the big balanced hands.

No, the whole point of a strong club system is to be able to describe the 10-15 counts more accurately, since rebids that would have shown 16+ in a standard system become available for distributional hands.

Strong-club players tend to lose on the strong hands because opps jam their auctions. Of course there are gains also, when opps get too aggressive or when opps do not interfere, but I think most strong-club players would say that on average they lose on the 16+ hands and gain on the 10-15 hands.

[jukmoi]

helene_t, on Feb 25 2010, 05:54 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Feb 24 2010, 10:18 PM, said:

in fact that's the whole point on a strong club system IMO is finding the slams with the big balanced hands.

No, the whole point of a strong club system is to be able to describe the 10-15 counts more accurately, since rebids that would have shown 16+ in a standard system become available for distributional hands.

Strong-club players tend to lose on the strong hands because opps jam their auctions. Of course there are gains also, when opps get too aggressive or when opps do not interfere, but I think most strong-club players would say that on average they lose on the 16+ hands and gain on the 10-15 hands.

I believe that the natural 2♣ and the nebulous 1♦ opener are the clearcut losers in a forcing club system.

[hrothgar]

jukmoi, on Feb 25 2010, 02:11 PM, said:

helene_t, on Feb 25 2010, 05:54 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Feb 24 2010, 10:18 PM, said:

in fact that's the whole point on a strong club system IMO is finding the slams with the big balanced hands.

No, the whole point of a strong club system is to be able to describe the 10-15 counts more accurately, since rebids that would have shown 16+ in a standard system become available for distributional hands.

Strong-club players tend to lose on the strong hands because opps jam their auctions. Of course there are gains also, when opps get too aggressive or when opps do not interfere, but I think most strong-club players would say that on average they lose on the 16+ hands and gain on the 10-15 hands.

I believe that the natural 2♣ and the nebulous 1♦ opener are the clearcut losers in a forcing club system.

Strong Club != Precision...

For example, in MOSCITO the 2♣ open promises 6+ Clubs (typically denies a 4 card major)

The 1♠ promises an unbalanced hand with 4+ Diamonds (typically denies a 4 card major)

Admittedly, we're "forced" to play 4 card majors, but some of us like 4 card majors...