[straube]

I play a strong club system. 1M=good 10 to bad 15

After 1M-1N, 2m-2N=12-13 hcp

After 1M-1N, 2m-2M, should opener rebid 2N with 15? good 14?

If it helps, responder can be showing a simple raise or a (usually) 2-fit with 7-11

The problem is trying not to be in 2N with fewer than 23, but not missing 25 pt games.

[helene_t]

Well as you have noticed, if opener bids 2NT you may play there with only 14+7 points and otherwise you may be playing 2M with 14+11 points.

You can use 1M-1NT-2♣-2♦ as an asking bid, but otherwise I think the answer is that opener should not make a move over 2M. Allowing for a 1NT opening with a 5-card major solves part of the problem (assuming that 14 points is within you NT range).

Alternatively, responder could pass the opening bid with 7 points and no fit, then it is safe for opener to invite with 2NT when he has 14 points.

[straube]

Yeah, I'm using a 1N of good 13-bad 16 pts (can have a 5-major) which is the same range that Meckwell uses. I'd like to know how they tackle the problem. I know that they use 1M-1N, 2C-2D as a natural nf and I can't imagine them passing 1M with an ace and king...but maybe with something less they would. Perhaps they miss their 15 opposite 10s, but they're famous for bidding 23 pt games so probably not. I know they're able to show single-suited hands of 12-bad 13 pts so as to avoid 3N with misfits, but I don't know how much they require for a 2N invitation with other sorts of hands.

I guess that 1M-1N, 2m-2M, 2N would at least confirm for us that opener's 2m was 4-cards which might get us to a 4-4 minor suit fit. I'm thinking maybe 1M-1N, 2m-2M, 2N shows a good 5/5 hand in many big club systems.

[Mbodell]

helene_t, on Feb 14 2010, 03:44 PM, said:

Well as you have noticed, if opener bids 2NT you may play there with only 14+7 points and otherwise you may be playing 2M with 14+11 points.

You can use 1M-1NT-2♣-2♦ as an asking bid, but otherwise I think the answer is that opener should not make a move over 2M. Allowing for a 1NT opening with a 5-card major solves part of the problem (assuming that 14 points is within you NT range).

Alternatively, responder could pass the opening bid with 7 points and no fit, then it is safe for opener to invite with 2NT when he has 14 points.

I sort of do both of your suggestions. In my strong club system when 1M is any 10 to most 15 (except we are allowed, and more often than not we do, open 1nt with 5M332 and 10-12 or 12-14 depending on seat and colors) then we play a semi-forcing 1nt that is about a good 8 to a bad 13. Partner passes the semi-forcing only with a balanced hand that is equal or below our 1 nt opener. Otherwise we play a form of gazzilli when over the forcing 1nt most hands with 13+ bid 2♣ which is artificial and either shows most hands with 13+ (the only ones missing are balanced 13+-14 which bid 2nt and a ~13 point 6M322 hand which bids 3M) or any strength hand with 4 ♣. The 1nt bidder bids 2♦ to show 11+ and creates a game force over the 13+ hands (if the opener had a weak hand with 4♣ they retreat to 2M, all other bids show some sort of 13+ hand).

[straube]

Mbodell, on Feb 15 2010, 03:48 AM, said:

helene_t, on Feb 14 2010, 03:44 PM, said:

Well as you have noticed, if opener bids 2NT you may play there with only 14+7 points and otherwise you may be playing 2M with 14+11 points.

You can use 1M-1NT-2♣-2♦ as an asking bid, but otherwise I think the answer is that opener should not make a move over 2M. Allowing for a 1NT opening with a 5-card major solves part of the problem (assuming that 14 points is within you NT range).

Alternatively, responder could pass the opening bid with 7 points and no fit, then it is safe for opener to invite with 2NT when he has 14 points.

I sort of do both of your suggestions. In my strong club system when 1M is any 10 to most 15 (except we are allowed, and more often than not we do, open 1nt with 5M332 and 10-12 or 12-14 depending on seat and colors) then we play a semi-forcing 1nt that is about a good 8 to a bad 13. Partner passes the semi-forcing only with a balanced hand that is equal or below our 1 nt opener. Otherwise we play a form of gazzilli when over the forcing 1nt most hands with 13+ bid 2♣ which is artificial and either shows most hands with 13+ (the only ones missing are balanced 13+-14 which bid 2nt and a ~13 point 6M322 hand which bids 3M) or any strength hand with 4 ♣. The 1nt bidder bids 2♦ to show 11+ and creates a game force over the 13+ hands (if the opener had a weak hand with 4♣ they retreat to 2M, all other bids show some sort of 13+ hand).

Would you diagram it?

1S-1N, 2D=10-12 with four diamonds?
1S-1N, 2H-10-12 with four hearts?

or are these bids 10-15?

I think I like 1N to promise 8 (or A and K). Otherwise it seems like we're trying to steal from the opponents and only fooling ourselves.

I've thought the following might get us to 3N and occasional better part scores...

1S-1N, 2C-2S, 2N=14-15 5-3-1-4
1S-1N, 2D-2S, 2N=14-15 5-3-4-1

1H-1N, 2C-2H, 2S=14-15 3-5-1-4
1H-1N, 2D-2H, 2S=14-15 3-5-4-1
1H-1N, 2C-2H, 2N=14-15 1-5-3-4
1H-1N, 2D-2H, 2N=14-15 1-5-4-3

[Mbodell]

straube, on Feb 15 2010, 03:14 PM, said:

Mbodell, on Feb 15 2010, 03:48 AM, said:

helene_t, on Feb 14 2010, 03:44 PM, said:

Well as you have noticed, if opener bids 2NT you may play there with only 14+7 points and otherwise you may be playing 2M with 14+11 points.

You can use 1M-1NT-2♣-2♦ as an asking bid, but otherwise I think the answer is that opener should not make a move over 2M. Allowing for a 1NT opening with a 5-card major solves part of the problem (assuming that 14 points is within you NT range).

Alternatively, responder could pass the opening bid with 7 points and no fit, then it is safe for opener to invite with 2NT when he has 14 points.

I sort of do both of your suggestions. In my strong club system when 1M is any 10 to most 15 (except we are allowed, and more often than not we do, open 1nt with 5M332 and 10-12 or 12-14 depending on seat and colors) then we play a semi-forcing 1nt that is about a good 8 to a bad 13. Partner passes the semi-forcing only with a balanced hand that is equal or below our 1 nt opener. Otherwise we play a form of gazzilli when over the forcing 1nt most hands with 13+ bid 2♣ which is artificial and either shows most hands with 13+ (the only ones missing are balanced 13+-14 which bid 2nt and a ~13 point 6M322 hand which bids 3M) or any strength hand with 4 ♣. The 1nt bidder bids 2♦ to show 11+ and creates a game force over the 13+ hands (if the opener had a weak hand with 4♣ they retreat to 2M, all other bids show some sort of 13+ hand).

Would you diagram it?

1S-1N, 2D=10-12 with four diamonds?
1S-1N, 2H-10-12 with four hearts?

or are these bids 10-15?

Nope, those are 10-12 with 4 diamonds. With 5 diamonds you can bid 3♦ showing 10-12 with 55. So 1♠-1nt-2♥ is exactly 4 hearts and exactly 10-12. With the same shape but a better hand you'd start with 1♠-1nt-2♣ and then over 2♦ you could reveal your shape (3♦ would now show 5 diamonds but the 13-15 strength).

[straube]

It just seems like you get too high sometimes, like 1S-1N, 3D with 5/5 10-12. What does 1N promise? I'm starting to think 1N should promise 6 NV and 8 V.

[whereagles]

straube, on Feb 15 2010, 12:02 AM, said:

Yeah, I'm using a 1N of good 13-bad 16 pts (can have a 5-major) which is the same range that Meckwell uses. I'd like to know how they tackle the problem.

send them an email.

as to your problem, I would say lower the 2NT to 11-12 and pass as opener with 15.

[Mbodell]

straube, on Feb 23 2010, 08:16 PM, said:

It just seems like you get too high sometimes, like 1S-1N, 3D with 5/5 10-12. What does 1N promise? I'm starting to think 1N should promise 6 NV and 8 V.

In this system 1nt promises a good 8 count. And yes you could get too high, but you'll have ~18 as a minimum (10+8).