[vuroth]

1. Bergen.

Our default agreement is Bergen is off by a passed hand and in competition. Whether or not that is wise, should the following be Bergen or not?

1♠ (X) 3♣?

2. Ogust/Feature.

The following came up:

2♥ (2♠) ?

I had a 3-ace 4441 monster, and wondered if 2NT was still feature or Ogust. Should whatever your conventional meaning for a 2NT response to a weak 2 still be in in competition?

Thanks.

V

[hrothgar]

1. I would say no

RHO is showing strength. Its not as useful to have methods to differentiate between a four card constructive raise and a four card limit raise because the frequency of the limit raises has decreased significant. Moreover, you're now expecting a competitive auction. It's much more important to be able to show shape.

After 1♠ - (X) - I prefer something like the following

3♠ = preemptive raise
3♥ = mixed raise to 3♠
3♦ = fit showing
3♣ = fit showing
2N = flat limit raise
2♠ = preemptive
2♥ = constructive raise to 2♠
2♦ = transfer to hearts
2♣ = transfer to Diamonds
1N = natural
XX = Values or clubs

[Codo]

1. It depends whether or not you need 3♣ for a better purpose.
I would prefer to play a totally different system in competition. To me 2 ♣ had been non forcing and 3 ♣ a forcing one suiter in clubs. Maybe this is not the theoretically best way, but it fits well in our structure, because now a Xx (or a X in similar situations) does not include strong onesuiters.

2. I would blast game. I have a ten card fit and they need now to guess what to do.
If I am too strong for just game, I would try 3♠ 4 ♣ or 4 NT, depending on my overall meta agreements.

[ONEferBRID]

1) Here's a treatment for Bergen over a DBL:

1S - (X) - ??
3H-jump = Upper Bergen ( like Jordan ), 4 cards, 10-12 hcp
2NT = Lower Bergen, 4 cards, 7-9
3C/3D = fit-showing-jumps

And for
1H - (X) - ??
2S-jump = Upper Bergen
2NT = Lower
3C/3D = FSJ
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Edit: I see hrothgar has a similar structure but has reversed the meanings of 2NT
and the Jump-in-the-other-Major.... which is fine.

[aguahombre]

Codo, on Feb 10 2010, 06:38 AM, said:

2. I would blast game. I have a ten card fit and they need now to guess what to do.
If I am too strong for just game, I would try 3♠ 4 ♣ or 4 NT, depending on my overall meta agreements.

Is the 4-4-4-1 really in order, or did OP have a stiff spade?

2N can certainly be used as the same conventional bid it would have been without the competition, because with a lot of hands where you would want 2NT to be natural you might double them.

However, if short in the overcalled suit, you can expect lefty to mess up opener's response to 2NT anyway.

[vuroth]

aguahombre, on Feb 10 2010, 01:39 PM, said:

Is the 4-4-4-1 really in order, or did OP have a stiff spade?

I held:

♠AKJ9
♥A953
♦3
♣AK52

[hrothgar]

vuroth, on Feb 10 2010, 10:19 PM, said:

aguahombre, on Feb 10 2010, 01:39 PM, said:

Is the 4-4-4-1 really in order, or did OP have a stiff spade?

I held:

♠AKJ9
♥A953
♦3
♣AK52

Best action depends (somewhat) on preempt style

If partner is old fashion (promises 2 out of the top three honors) then you can just blast 6♥

If partner's preempts are extremely disciplined, ask about trump quality and then place the contract.

If partner is somewhere in between, you can probably just bid 6♥. If you're paranoid, you could ask for the trump King before bidding slam (My main worry on the hand is that partner might have a trump suit like QJTxxx and there might not be transport to hand to run the Queen)

[mike777]

vuroth, on Feb 10 2010, 07:42 AM, said:

1.  Bergen.

Our default agreement is Bergen is off by a passed hand and in competition.  Whether or not that is wise, should the following be Bergen or not?

1♠ (X) 3♣?

2.  Ogust/Feature.

The following came up:

2♥ (2♠) ?

I had a 3-ace 4441 monster, and wondered if 2NT was still feature or Ogust.  Should whatever your conventional meaning for a 2NT response to a weak 2 still be in in competition?

Thanks.

V

Bergen plays BROMAD

1s=x=?
2s=3 piece raise less than Constructive
2h=3 piece raise Const.
xx=3 piece LMT or better in support (xx doesn't promise support, you have to raise pard later).


1h=x=?
2h=3 pieces less than const.
2d=3 piece const.
xx=3 piece Lmt or better, etc.


Standard Bergen is still on over x with 4 card raises.

so for us:

1major=(x)=3c shows around 8-11 total support pts and 4 card support.



We play all of the above is on by a passed or unpassed hand. In other words, the system is easy on the old memory.

[jdonn]

1. No
2. Yes unless choosing another convention option

[nigel_k]

1. System on is fine but doing something different is ok as well as long as you can remember it. I like all jumps to be weak and natural if they interfere, so only 2NT (after X) or cue bid (after overcall) is available as an artificial raise. I'm not entirely sure this is best though.

2. It seems sensible to keep the same meaning for 2NT when they overcall 2♠. I would play 2♠ not 2NT as the artificial enquiry if there is no interference which saves a step and allows you to use the same structure after both 2♥ and 2♠ openings. In that case, using the same approach is obviously not an option when they overcall 2♠.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 Bergen being off after interference is good, hence 3C in your sample auction
is not Bergen.
The meaning of 3C is partnership depend, fit jumps are a sensible treatment,
i.e. 3C would show 5 clubds and a fit.

#2 I woulld suggest, that 2NT Ogust or feature ask is off after intervention.
Also being a guy with only limited memory space, I would suggest that you
switch to the structure, that you play, if you open 1 in a suit and they overcall
in a suit, i.e. 3H / 4H would be weak / preemptive raises, 3S would be a forcing
raise, X would be T/O (penalty makes also sense, depends how restrictive you play
your weak twos).

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

Of Course Bergen is all about the law and getting to your lawful level.

OTOH many posters prefer fit jump bidding so you pick whichever you prefer.

[CSGibson]

as for 2, it absolutely makes sense that you play the same thing as you would without competition. Can you really want to play a natural 2N opposite either a good or a bad hand from partner? Won't the information gleaned by the answer to 2N be useful either way in placing the contract?

[Mbodell]

I think (reverse) Bergen makes even more sense over a X of a major than not a pass. You generally want to jump up and grab space with a fit, and you aren't likely to want to introduce a new minor without a fit as you'll probably want to XX with strength and no fit or pass with just an outside fit. In a number of my partnerships I have 7 major raises over a double and like communicating that information quickly:

Over 1M - X :

2♣ = 3 card support and 10+ points (8 losers or better)
2♦ = 3 card support and 6-10 points (9 losers)
2M = 3 card support and 0-6 (10+ losers)

3♣ = 4+ card support and 10+ points (8 losers or better)
3♦ = 4 card support and 6-10 points (9 losers)
3M = 4 card support and 0-6 (10+losers)

4M = 5 card support and <10 points

Doing this very, very quickly pins the right level in competition and acts to take away maximum room from opponents and is pretty easy to remember.

One of my partners suggests that we switch the game forcing hands into the ♦ so that ♦ are less than limit or game forcing and ♣ is exactly limit which is probably an improvement that will help with tempo issues if partner tanks over 3♣ and then bids 3M and you have what you thought was a gf but others might view as only a limit raise.

[fromageGB]

Agree with Mbodell, I think Bergen takes away their room and wins the day. If you keep the 3m bid for the rare jump fits, you will be giving the hand to the opponents too often.

But why reverse Bergen? 3♦ is useful as an inquiry over the wider range normal 3♣. Is it for the additional preemptive value with weaker hands?

[wank]

hrothgar, on Feb 10 2010, 08:09 AM, said:

1.  I would say no

RHO is showing strength.  Its not as useful to have methods to differentiate between a four card constructive raise and a four card limit raise because the frequency of the limit raises has decreased significant.  Moreover, you're now expecting a competitive auction.  It's much more important to be able to show shape.

After 1♠ - (X) - I prefer something like the following

3♠ = preemptive raise
3♥ = mixed raise to 3♠
3♦ = fit showing
3♣ = fit showing
2N = flat limit raise
2♠ = preemptive
2♥ = constructive raise to 2♠
2♦ = transfer to hearts
2♣ = transfer to Diamonds
1N = natural
XX = Values or clubs

this is good, except 1NT as natural is useless to you, helpful to the oppo and stops you playing it as a transfer to clubs which is infinitely more sensible.

oh and you only do this over 1M (x), not minor openers.

over 1H (x) 1S is natural. 2S you can play as a mixed raise if you like or as fit

[Mbodell]

fromageGB, on Feb 12 2010, 12:26 PM, said:

But why reverse Bergen? 3♦ is useful as an inquiry over the wider range normal 3♣. Is it for the additional preemptive value with weaker hands?

Yes. My general philosophy is the weaker we are the more auction we should take up. I think giving the opponents an extra suit to bid (as well as doubling your suit) is worse when we are weak then when we are strong. So I think bidding 2♦ or 3♦ with the middling hands hurts us constructively less than it hurts the opponents.