[rbforster]

straube, on Feb 12 2010, 01:53 AM, said:

I assume, however, that you meant that 1N only promises a rebid  after 1C-1D and not 1C-1H (unless opener makes a GF).

I had intended it for 1C-1H too. Showing the top of your 0-4 range only matters opposite the "almost but not quite GF" openers and wrong-sides NT, but remember that 1♠ is a minor-oriented distributional hand so probably we're playing 2m instead of 1N anyway. If opener does have a big hand, knowing partner isn't completely broke will help too; specifically when the 1♥ bidder bids 2♣ (total bust) instead of 1N, even a very strong opener can be warned to pass at a lower level.

Quote

1C-1H, 2C-  [majors]
Good use of the 2C rebid but it would be really nice to know whether responder has a 4-card major or not...because the 21-22 pt hand could raise a fitting major instead of rebidding 2N.

In Woolsey, 2C-2M just shows a length preference not a fit - responder could have 3-1/3-2/2-1 majors for example. I would suggest 2M (especially 2♠) generally be a weak response (in context), since you could use 2♦ (asking for opener's longer major) or 2N to show various invitational hands. Also, since 2M doesn't guarantee a fit, probably the balanced hand would still want to bid 2N over most of the responses.

Quote

in Woolsey, does [edit]X-2D promise both 4-card majors?  I'm a little concerned about losing a natural diamond bid by responder.

2♦ shows an inability to tolerate playing in clubs, since 2♣ would be p/c. A big diamond fit could be missed of course, although typically if responder has short clubs (<2), he'll have at least 3-3 majors but he certainly won't have 4-4 majors all the time.

Quote

As 1C-1H, 1S-1N shows something...I think the continuations should take advantage of that. 

Yes, that's not available in Woolsey so you could try to take additional advantage of that. Perhaps you could handle weak hands with long diamonds there too, so that 1N-2♣-2♦ was natural, or conversely, possibly some sort of artificial invitational bid asking for opener's major. There are lots of possibilities.

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You have 2 ways of showing 5M/4C for example...one GF and the other not...but opener hasn't been able to take advantage of knowing whether responder has a value before deciding whether to GF.

Yes, that's right. Because the direct bids are natural (1C-1DH-2M), I want responder to be able to pass with a minimum in context. If opener is really so strong that this might miss game, he can bid them the other way. Remember that since you've already limited responder strength by his 1♦ or 1♥ response to a known 3-4 point range, it should be pretty easy for both opener to evaluate how much he needs for game, and for responder to pass these NF bids on the low end (and raise/invite or generally bid on if on the high end).

Quote

I think Atul was asking for Rob's opinion on agreement after competition over 1C-1D.  I'm interested, too.

You can just relay over low level interference (P=GF relay, limited hands bid naturally or X for takeout). Probably you can do this through 1♣-1♦-(1N), where you are on a +1 track for 1N interference (and lower correspondingly for lower interference, gaining room from X or 1♥ overcalls). Higher than that I'm not sure, but probably forcing pass thru 2N or something, with takeout doubles and natural bids on good suits is probably ok.

[straube]

I'm thinking that we're putting too many hand types through 1C-1H, 1S. I think the bid should promise a 5-card minor.

With a big 5M/4m hand, we can use 1C-1H, 2D. With a 0-4 pt hand, responder should not be super-accepting hearts with less than four hearts or perhaps three with shortness. Same if he super-accepts also for spades as well (1C-1H, 2D-2N).

We haven't made use of continuations at the three-level...

1C-1H, 2D-2H...
.....3C-5H/4C-f
.....3D-5H/4D-f
.....3H-5S/4C-f
.....3S-5S/4D-f

We also haven't defined 1C-1H, 3L.

We obviously can't be embarrassed by a heart (or heart and spade) super-accept after 1C-1H, 2D.

As to the 1C-1H, 1S-1N auction, I don't feel like that should promise a rebid...if indeed it is best for that to show the 3-4 pt hand.

If as opener, I hold AQxx x Kxx AKxxx, I might want to get out in 2C. My other obvious choice is 1N...but I risk being transferred into hearts. We also haven't dealt with the (31)(54) hands which (I think) ought to be able to sign off in 2m.

So 1C-1H, 1S-1N (promising a rebid),2C-2D(asking major), 2S-2N and we're in 2N with a misfit and 19-20 hcp. I think that should be avoided.

1C-1H, 1S-1N (3-4)
.....2C-clubs (could have 4M or 4D even)
..........2D-asks side major, fitting in clubs, forcing to 3C
.....2D-diamonds (could have 4M or 4C)
..........2H-4+ hearts, fitting in diamonds, forcing to 3D
.....2M-M/unspecified minor, f
..........2N-not fitting
...............3m-4M/5m invitational
...............3M-corresponding minor, f


About the only thing the 0-2 hand has to offer is fit for opener. As opener is known to have a minor, responder can super-accept for clubs right away.

1C-1H, 1S-2C (0-2, not four clubs)
1C-1H, 1S-2D (0-2, four clubs, not four diamonds)
1C-1H, 1S-2M (0-4, 6M)
1C-1H, 1S-2N-(0-2, both minors)

What would 1C-1H, 2C-2D, 2H-2S show?

I still like that as a correction with spade preference allowing

1C-1H, 2C-2D, 2S to show 0-2, 4 spades

With 3-4 and 4 spades, seems like a jump/raise to 3S or puppet stayman will work fine.

[straube]

I was able to confirm that TOSR's 1C-1D (0-7), 1S-1N (5-7), 2m is nf. I don't think 1C-1H(0-4), 1S-1N(3-4) should promise a rebid over 2m.

How about...
1C-1H(0-4), 1S-distributional and limited

1C-1H (neg)
.....P-5H/4m, weak
.....1N-15-20
.....2C-GF except for 2C-2H, 2S-2N, 3S and 2C-2H, 3H
..........2D-3-4
..........2H-0-2
...............3S-4S/5H
...............4m-5H/5m
.....2D-6c M or 22-23 or 5H/4m inv
..........2H-p/c
...............2S-6 spades
...............2N-22-23
...............3m-5H/5m inv
.....2H-4S/5H, weak
.....2S-5S/5C
.....2N-21-22

1C-1H,
.....1S-1N (3-4) or 2C (0-2)
..........2C/p-clubs
..........2D-diamonds
..........2H-5S/4H
..........2S-5S/5D

3-level not used except against 1C-1H, 1S-1N=3-4
..........2N-inv/ minors
..........3m-inv
..........3H-5/5 majors, invite
..........3S-5/5 majors, almost f

[rbforster]

I had mostly intended responder's 1N rebid to promise a rebid in the semipositive sequence

1♣-1♦ strong; any semipositive 5-8(-)
1♠-1N various minor hands; good hand 6(+)-8(-)
...

In this situation, responder is essentially pre-accepting any invitation that opener may make, and since opener has yet to really describe much about his hand, it makes sense that you allow the cheap bids by opener at this point to be F1 rather than signoffs (since jumping wastes space and may lose a fit below 3N, we probably have values to make 2N/3m anyway, opener only wants to stop when he's got ~15-16).

I agree it makes less sense for responder to promise a rebid in the 1♣-1♥ double negative case. In this case, opener will have a wide range of hands with no game interest even opposite 3-4 (i.e. ~15-19 vs ~15-16). I still think it makes some sense to have 1N show the extra values in context, but not that it promises a rebid.

I think some of the structures you're proposing are going in a pretty different direction than those I was thinking about based on Woolsey. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to accomplish or why you're making the various changes, but maybe that's just a difference in our styles (I tend to want opener to describe and responder to ask, rather than v.versa, and also I'm not a huge fan of lots of pass/correct bids since they make constructive bidding hard).

[straube]

Thanks for replying. I'll try to show what I'm trying to do though we may not wind up agreeing on continuations for 1C-1H.

I think in broad terms, I'm more concerned than you are with finding a cheap place to land. I want to be ahead of those using 1C-1S (neg) and be able to play 2m and opener's longer major...just for starters.

I don't like passing 1C-1H with minimum (say 15-17) 5H/4m hands. I'm primarily doing so because I want not to have to use a a 2H rebid to show this hand. I don't like 1C-1H, 2H with 5H/4m with a hand that could be 15-17 opposite a 0-4 pt hand. Odds are we have less than half the deck and are not going to game. If partner has both minors and corrects (seems infrequent) then we're at the 3-level. I'd rather take my chances in 1H.

I don't want partner to super-accept 1C-1H, 2D (showing a major) with something like Kxxx xx xxxxx xx. I want three hearts and a trick. I'm comfortable lumping my 6H hands with my goodish 5H/4m hands because partner's super-accept is welcome in either case. In the first case, at worst I'm playing 3H in a 9-card fit and half the deck. At best, either I or partner insists on game. In the second case, if partner super-accepts, then with my goodish 5H/4m hand, I just bid game. If he doesn't superaccept, I decide whether to linger in 2H or show my minor (which really ought to be a 5m at that point).

I think if I want partner to accept game in hearts with Kxxx xx xxxxx xx, that I have a couple of ways of getting there. One is 1C-1H, 3H (do you have a trick? a heart or two?) and the other is 1C-1H, 2C-2D, 2H.

Your structure handles majors better than mine because opener gets a chance to bid again always whereas I only get that chance with 5S/4H.

Maybe instead of showing which 5S/5m I have, I should show which strength I have...
1C-1H, 2S=strong 5S/4m and 1C-1S, 1N/2C-2S=weak 5S/4m. Is that better?

I think your structure has a little more difficulty with something like Axx x KQJxx AJxx or Axx x AJx AQJxxxx where you just want to play 2m. I'd like to see if you've revised it since you're not promising a rebid after 1C-1H, 1S-1N, 2m. For instance, does your 1C-1H, 1S-2D still ask for a major? I'm using 1C-1H, 1S as possibly just a minor and I think you're guaranteeing a 2-suiter...but not apparently 5m4m.

I've toyed with the idea of 1C-1H, 1S-1N/2C-2D starting a GF. I don't like that my 1C-1H, 1S and my 1C-1H, 2C both ask responder's size. Seems redundant. But I don't like responder bidding 1N when NT is a likely spot and I do like that my 1S and 2C bids box opener's hand strengths.

You mentioned 1C-1S, 2D-2H, 2S as a strong invite...in spades? I'm not familiar with this structure.

[rbforster]

straube, on Feb 15 2010, 02:34 PM, said:

I think in broad terms, I'm more concerned than you are with finding a cheap place to land.  I want to be ahead of those using 1C-1S (neg) and be able to play 2m and opener's longer major...just for starters.

I have a more complicated structure for scrambling to a good place, but it assumes you're mostly dealing with limited hands (1♠ is any 2-suiter except both minors, 2 level bids are natural). I thoughts Woolsey would be pretty familiar and had the benefit of having a decent number of forcing first rebids so it could accomodate both the very strong and normal openers.

Quote

I don't like passing 1C-1H with minimum (say 15-17) 5H/4m hands.  I'm primarily doing so because I want not to have to use a a 2H rebid to show this hand.  I don't like 1C-1H, 2H with 5H/4m with a hand that could be 15-17 opposite a 0-4 pt hand.  Odds are we have less than half the deck and are not going to game.  If partner has both minors and corrects (seems infrequent) then we're at the 3-level.  I'd rather take my chances in 1H.

I guess actually this might not be such a bad idea. If you're on the low end of a strong club, say with ~15-18 and 5♥+, passing the double negative could be fine. That way if you later show 5+ hearts in the Woolsey system, it shows extras. For example,

1♣-1♥ double negative:

P 5+♥, no game interest opposite 0-4
2♣-2♦-2♥ majors; art ask for longer; heart preference showing extras (else pass 1♥)
2♦-2♥ 1 major; responder should super accept in hearts (2♠) freely since when partner has hearts, he has extras

[straube]

I'd like to see your complete structure. So far I have...

1C-1H,
.....P-15-18, 5H/4m

1C-1H, 1S
.....1N-3-4
..........2C-to play
..........2D-to play
..........2H-4S/5H, weak
..........2S-5S/4m-strong
..........2N-minors
..........3m-GI
..........3H-4S/5H, strong
..........3S-5S/4H, strong (yuck)
..........3N-5S/5H, strong

.....2C-0-2
..........P-to play
.........2D-to play
.........2H-4S/5H, weak or strong
.........2S-5S/4 other (including hearts), strong
.........2N-both minors
.........3H-5S/5H, strong

1C-1H

.........2C-GF almost
...............2D-3-4
...............2H-0-2
....................2S-f
....................3H-nf
....................3S-4S/5H
....................4m-5H/5m
..........2D-6M or 19+ 5H/4m or 22-23 bal
...............2H-no super-accept
....................2S-6 spades
....................2N-22-23
....................3m-5H/5m strong
..........2H-5S/4H, weak
..........2S-5S/4m, weak
..........2N-21-22
..........3L-strong invite

[rbforster]

Let me just point out a few areas for improvement in your structure:

straube, on Feb 16 2010, 03:01 AM, said:

1C-1H,
.....P-15-18, 5H/4m

I think you should probably be willing to pass here with 6+ hearts and/or 5+H/4+S assuming your hand isn't good enough to make game opposite an ace or something.

Quote

1C-1H, 1S
.....1N-3-4
..........2C-to play
..........2D-to play
..........2H-4S/5H, weak
..........2S-5S/4m-strong
..........2N-minors
..........3m-GI
..........3H-4S/5H, strong
..........3S-5S/4H, strong  (yuck)
..........3N-5S/5H, strong

Here responder has already shown his values (3-4), so you shouldn't need both 2m to play AND 3m invitational. 3m should be GF I think.

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.....2C-0-2
..........P-to play
.........2D-to play
.........2H-4S/5H, weak or strong
.........2S-5S/4 other (including hearts), strong
.........2N-both minors
.........3H-5S/5H, strong

If 2H is weak or strong, then it's forcing. This means you'll be forced to 3H on minimum-opposite-bust on the likely heart preference. I think you should just pass 1H with these minimums, even with 4S.

Quote

1C-1H
.........2C-GF almost
...............2D-3-4
...............2H-0-2
....................2S-f
....................3H-nf
....................3S-4S/5H
....................4m-5H/5m

With 1S,2C,2D, and 2N all forcing under Woolsey, I don't really see the need for another "almost GF" response. You can probably just bid 1♠ and get the same range information out of partner's likely 1N/2C rebid. Also, I don't think you should be jumping past 3N on any hand without a self-sufficient suit until responder has been able to make some useful reply (your 4m rebid with 5/5 H+m for example).

The other parts seem ok, but like I said, I think I still prefer the Woolsey-based system at this point.

[straube]

Robf said:

straube, on Feb 16 2010, 03:01 AM, said:

1C-1H,
.....P-15-18, 5H/4m

I think you should probably be willing to pass here with 6+ hearts and/or 5+H/4+S assuming your hand isn't good enough to make game opposite an ace or something.

I've thought about that, but I think a hand with 5H/4S has too much game potential to just pass. Partner could have length in either or both majors which could make game a cinch. Plus it's nice to give partner a choice here. I think I want to bid with 6H hands just to jack the bidding up lest the opponents balance and find a spade/other fit.

RobF said:

Sraube said:

]1C-1H, 1S
.....1N-3-4
..........2C-to play
..........2D-to play
..........2H-4S/5H, weak
..........2S-5S/4m-strong
..........2N-minors
..........3m-GI
..........3H-4S/5H, strong
..........3S-5S/4H, strong  (yuck)
..........3N-5S/5H, strong

Here responder has already shown his values (3-4), so you shouldn't need both 2m to play AND 3m invitational. 3m should be GF I think.

Well, but I have 1C-1H, 3C as highly invitational....probably with a running suit. So 3m here might be a broken suit. An alternate use of 3m here would be 6m4M hands. Like 3C could show 4H/6D and 3D could show 4S/6D. 1C-1H, 1S-1N, 2C- 2D then asks for a major if responder has tolerance for clubs.

RobF said:

Straube said:

.........2C-0-2
..........P-to play
.........2D-to play
.........2H-4S/5H, weak or strong
.........2S-5S/4 other (including hearts), strong
.........2N-both minors
.........3H-5S/5H, strong

If 2H is weak or strong, then it's forcing. This means you'll be forced to 3H on minimum-opposite-bust on the likely heart preference. I think you should just pass 1H with these minimums, even with 4S.

It's strong but limited by the use of 1C-1H, 1S. Opener would GF 1C-1H, 2C with an even stronger hand. This route shows that opener might have contemplated a GF against a 1C-1H, 1S-1N answer....in which case a 3H rebid would have shown the strong hand. After 1C-1H, 1S-2C, 2H responder can still raise, knowing opener's pattern, but only with a good fit for the major.

RobF said:

Straube said:

1C-1H
.........2C-GF almost
...............2D-3-4
...............2H-0-2
....................2S-f
....................3H-nf
....................3S-4S/5H
....................4m-5H/5m

With 1S,2C,2D, and 2N all forcing under Woolsey, I don't really see the need for another "almost GF" response. You can probably just bid 1♠ and get the same range information out of partner's likely 1N/2C rebid. Also, I don't think you should be jumping past 3N on any hand without a self-sufficient suit until responder has been able to make some useful reply (your 4m rebid with 5/5 H+m for example).

Could be right to make 1C-1H, 2C GF. I could use it just to relay responder's shape. If I allow a negative (1C-1H, 2C-2H) response, then I don't see how else I can show 5H/5m without getting past 3N.

RobF said:

The other parts seem ok, but like I said, I think I still prefer the Woolsey-based system at this point.

I like Woolsey, but it would seem serendipitous to me if it turned out to be the best continuation because Woolsey is a defense to NT where the defenders don't have the bid and have the option of passing. Here we have to land (can pass occasionally), limit our hands, create GFs, invites, etc.

I'm mostly thinking of shelving this problem for the near term, but I'd like to see your structure again with revisions because I don't know what it is now. Also, thanks loads for all of your help. I think 1C-1D as all semipositives has a lot of potential.

[wank]

Rob i've blatantly stolen most of your stuff and fiddled with it a bit to imo optimise it. seems hypocritical to keep it quiet when i got it all from you so here it is:-

1C - 1H - 1S = non-GF in a minor, 19-24 with 5+ spades, 23-4bal, GF 5H 4+ clubs, GF 1 major, non-GF 4M-5m >>>> 1NT demi-semi positive >>>> 2m = nat no game may have 4cM, 2H = GF opposite a fit, either max 4H 5m or 23/4 bal, 2S = GF opposite a fit, either 5 spades or 4 spades 5m, 2NT = 5H 4+Clubs GF, 3M = GF single suiter

1C - 1H - 2D = 16-18(19)5S4m, 19-24 5H4m or GF both minors
1C - 1H - 2C = majors or 21-22 bal or GF bal (2NT rebid = 21-22, 3 minor bids available to unravel major fits with GF bal, 3M bids for GF majors)
1C - 1H - 2H = nat single suiter 19-24
1C - 1H - 2S = 16-18(19) 6+ spades
1C - 1H - 2NT = 5S 4+clubs GF
1C - 1H - 3m = nat GF
1C - 1H - 3M = nat GF with diamonds

positives:-
more definition with the major based hands in terms of point ranges
a lot of the time with this arrangement a minimum opener with a minor can escape in 2m

[straube]

I think if I pass 1C-1H with minimum 5H332 or 5H/4m hands that my frequency of opener's rebids will look something like...

P 7
1S 17
1N 50 (15-20, balanced or 4441, no 6m or 5H)
2C 5 (GF)
2D 11
2H 3
2S 3
2N 4

which is promising in that 1S receives significant use but disappointing in that 1N receives three times more use.

If 1C-1S is the DN, I suspect the distribution is more like...

P 9
1N 62
2C 5
other

which is also awful.

Some bid has to be sacrificed for the DN. I'm guesstimating that based on hcps and not QPs (if by QPs semipositives would be much more frequent) that likelihood of responses can be tabulated as roughly...

DN 20% 0-4
SP 35% 5-7 (8)
P 45% 8+

So grouping responses to 1C as....

1D semipositives 35%
1H dbl negatives 20%
1S+ positives 45%

has a certain amount of symmetry and the frequency curve ought to look pretty nice.

Still, I'm bothered by the infrequency of 1C-1H, 1S. Something is wrong here. Could be several things. Perhaps 1C-1H, 1N should be 16-20 and we use 13-15 NTs. Perhaps 1C-1H should show 0-5 and opener shows his balanced 20s. Perhaps 1C-1H, 1S should be used differently.

Anyway, still working on it.

[straube]

Well, the 1C-1H, 2C(GF) is seldom used. RobF gets better use of it showing the majors...

1C-1H,

.....P-minimum 5H/4m or 5H332
.....1S-1N(0-2)/2C(3-4)
..........P/2C-to play
..........2D-to play
..........2H-medium hearts
..........2S-medium spades
..........2N-clubs, possible side
..........3C-diamonds, possible side
..........3D-strong H
..........3H-strong S
..........3S-strong m/m
.....1N-good 16-20 balanced or 4441
.....2C-majors of uneven length OR 21-22
..........2D-asks
...............2H-4S/5H
....................2S-4 spades, 3-4
...............2S-5S/4H
...............2N-21-22
..........2H-fit or 2-cd preference
..........2S-4 spades, 0-2
.....2D-single major or medium 5H/4m or 23-24 balanced
..........2H-no super-accept for hearts
................P-minimum heart hand
................2S-minimum spade hand
................2N-23-24 balanced
................3m-5H/5m medium hand
.....2H-GF
..........2S-forced
................2N-25+
................3C-(31)(54)
.....................3D-relays
..........................3H-1-3-(54)
..........................3S-3-1-(54)
................3D-4-4-4-1
................3H-4-4-1-4
................3S-4-1-4-4
................3N-1-4-4-4
.....2S-5S/4m, medium hand
.....2N-21-22 with 6-cd suit (usually minor), wants to declare, usually balanced
..........3C-p/c
..........3D-3-4, asks if pd has 6M
...............3M-6M
..........3M-6 OM
.....3C-GF 5H/5m
..........3D-relays
...............3H-clubs
...............3S-diamonds
.....3D-GI+ 5M/5M
.....3H-GF 5S/5C
.....3S-GF 5S/5D

[rbforster]

Definitely looking better, straube. I still think you're missing a way to show 5/5 majors min, and I don't really like having to force to 3m on the 5H/4+m medium hands (2S showing 5S/4+m medium seems good tho). My strong club system has 1♦ with most 0-7 hands, so I've got a little more space to look for fits, while here opposite 1♥ there's less space. Let me see if I can come up with something...

[straube]

The 5M/5M isn't a problem because 1C-1H, 3D affords opener a rebid if responder tries to settle in 3H or 3S.

I think I have a flaw because I left out 5S/4m minimums. I suppose they responder could be dropped into 2S via 1C-1H, 2H-2S.

I'd like to see what you come up with.

Edit: well a weak 5M/5M could rebid 2C, but these hands take very little if partner has a fit.
Maybe 1C-1H, 1S-1N/2C, 2S should show 5S/4m medium or 6S medium

[rbforster]

How about this for the double negative structure, again along the Woolsey lines. I've included more detail on the followups. Note I've decided that I wanted fewer NT ranges folded into other things, so I'm using the direct 2N opening as 21-22 (not in the strong club).

1♣-1♥ double negative (0-4):

P min 5+ hearts
1♠ unbalanced with a minor
1N 15-20 bal
2♣ both majors 5/4+
2♦ 6+ major or 23-24 bal
2M 5M/4+m inv (NF)
2N GF bal, 25+
3m GF 6+m
3M GF 5/5 M+D

Now with the followups in more detail:

P any min unbalanced hand with 5+ primary hearts (consider 1N with 5332)

1♠ unbalanced hand with a minor (all hands 4M/5+m or both minors, one-suited minors min or inv, GF 5M/4+m except 5M/5D)
......1N forcing and encouraging, but no rebid promised (all 3-4 hands)
......2C p/c, catchall and weak (0-2ish)
......2D both majors (4/4+), weak 0-2ish (NF)
......2M 6+ natural and weak 0-2ish

after 1N/2C, opener rebids can adjust his range accordingly. specifically, he can make a weak bid with inv values if partner bid 2C (0-2); likewise he can make a strong bid with an inv hand if partner bids 1N (3-4).

1♣-1♥-1♠-1N/2♣ (catchall, showing range):
...........P/2C 5+ min, could have 4cM (2H p/c)
...........2D 5+ min, could have 4cM (2H p/c)
...........2H GF art: 4M/5m or 5M/4m (2S relays)
..................2N various hands (3C relays)
........................3D 4S/5D
........................3M 5M/4C
..................3C 4M/5C (3D asks for M)
..................3D 4H/5D
..................3M 5M/4D
...........2S 5S/4+m min NF (3C p/c for m)
...........2N 5/4+minors GF
...........3m 4M/6+m GF
...........3M 5M/5C GF
1♣-1♥-1♠-2♦ (weak with majors):
...........P 6+ or 5/5 minors min or inv
...........2M 4M/5+m NF (min or inv), could be (31)(54) too
...........2N 5/4+minors inv (NF)
...........3C 6+C min or inv
...........3D 5/4+ minors GF
...........3M 4+M fit GF (5M/4+m or 4M/5+m)

1N 15-20 could be semibalanced with 4441 or 22(54) (strong NT systems)

2♣ both majors 5/4+, any strength except 45/55 min (pass 1H)
.......2D asks for longer major (0-1 card difference, or good hand with 3+H)
.............2H inv 5+H/4+S
.............2S min 5+S/4+H
.......2H clear H pref, weak hand (2+ card difference)
.......2S clear S pref (2+ card difference)

(more coming on the 2C majors section, hopefully)

2♦ 6+ major, any strength except min H (pass), or 23-24 bal
.......2♥ catchall, no super accept for H
.......2♠ superaccept in H
.................P inv H
.................P/2S min S
.................2N 23-24 bal
.................3C distributional game try in M (3D asks for M)
.................3D inv S
.................3H GF H (could be inv after super accept)
.................3S GF S

2M 5M/4+m inv (2N good ask, P or 3C p/c bad hand)
2N GF balanced, 25+
3m GF 6+ with no side major (else 1S)
3M GF 5/5 M+D

In particular, this should handle the minimum shapely openers pretty well, getting them to a decent fit at the two level almost all the time.

[straube]

Hi Rob. Sorry but I'm mostly critical.

1. I don't want to open 2N with 21-22. I want to open those 1C and hopefully relay partner's positive or semipositive response. I'm guessing you want 1C-1H, 2C-2L, 2N to show an invite as it's a little hard to show extras after showing the majors. Is that why?

2. I disagree with 1C-1H, 1S-2D because there is no likelihood of a fit and we may have as few as 15 hcp and wind up playing 2N. Responder doesn't have the right to show majors here. I'm a little surprised that you don't instead react positively when your structure guarantees opener to have a minor. I mean, you could use 1C-1H, 1S-2D as both minors and opener would know he has a fit.

3. I miss having the 21+ (really unlimited) 6cd suit 2N bid. I think this hand (6cd suit but positional for NT) comes up a lot and the structure I gave lets us have our cake and eat it, too (opener gets to declare 3N or any suit except hearts)

4. I don't see the point really of 1C-1H, 3m GF minors and I don't like that opener hasn't heard whether responder is 0-2 or 3-4 at that point. What's responder really to do at this point? He doesn't have much room. Should his bids show 6-cd majors or a third negative? My structure had most of the medium/strong single-suit hands go through 1C-1H, 1S because they stand more to gain (knowing whether R has a value) than the giant 2-suited hands (where R's value is likely not useful). I also used transfers to opener's minor (available after both 0-2 and 3-4) so that responder could accept the transfer and opener could show a second suit or offer to play 3N as a COG.

Something I like about your structure very much is that 1C-1H, 1S-1N/2C-2H is an artificial GF. Seems very logical. Thanks for posting your structure.

[rbforster]

straube, on Feb 21 2010, 11:02 PM, said:

1. I don't want to open 2N with 21-22.  I want to open those 1C and hopefully relay partner's positive or semipositive response.  I'm guessing you want 1C-1H, 2C-2L, 2N to show an invite as it's a little hard to show extras after showing the majors.  Is that why?

Well, I haven't found/invented a good 2♣ majors structure yet, but I was thinking that it might be useful to have opener's 2N rebid free for the majors hands. In particular, if responder takes a weak preference, i.e.

1♣-1♥ double negative
2♣-2M majors; preference
2N-? invite with only 4M

it seems like 2N might be a nice way to invite showing only 4 cards in M, since responder might well just have 3-2 or 2-1 majors or something and you don't really want to raise his suit if it's not a real fit. In that case, you'd want to actually play 2N some of the time, especially on the misfits. That said, maybe there's a way to get all this sorted out by overloading the 2♦ response, but I haven't figured all that out yet.

Quote

2. I disagree with 1C-1H, 1S-2D because there is no likelihood of a fit and we may have as few as 15 hcp and wind up playing 2N.  Responder doesn't have the right to show majors here.  I'm a little surprised that you don't instead react positively when your structure guarantees opener to have a minor.  I mean, you could use 1C-1H, 1S-2D as both minors and opener would know he has a fit.

There are a large number of hands that are 4M/5+m out there, more common by far than single suited minors (by about 2x), so it does make some sense to cater to those (and majors pay more I hear). Note that you won't end up playing 2N - responder can pass 2D with long diamonds and no major, or bid 3C with long clubs (which will always be 6+ if he lacks a major). Also, remember that you'll be avoiding some nasty misfits too, when responder is short in clubs it's not exactly ideal to bid 2♣ p/c when he's got both majors and opener may well have a 4cM himself.

I do agree that my 2D bid is one of the more aggressive additions to the structure, in that it works out very well for finding major fits but at the cost of sometimes pushing you to a higher level in the minors. You could just never respond 2♦ or use it as a natural long suit if you prefer (like the weak 2M bids), or maybe "multi" showing a better hand (3-4) with a 6cM.

Quote

3.  I miss having the 21+ (really unlimited) 6cd suit 2N bid.  I think this hand (6cd suit but positional for NT) comes up a lot and the structure I gave lets us have our cake and eat it, too (opener gets to declare 3N or any suit except hearts)

I guess I haven't looked so closely at that hand type; it certainly wasn't part of my design plans but mostly out of neglect. There are probably ways to free up some more 2N and 3N bids to show this if you really wanted within my structure.

Quote

4.  I don't see the point really of 1C-1H, 3m GF minors and I don't like that opener hasn't heard whether responder is 0-2 or 3-4 at that point.  What's responder really to do at this point? He doesn't have much room.  Should his bids show 6-cd majors or a third negative?  My structure had most of the medium/strong single-suit hands go through 1C-1H, 1S because they stand more to gain (knowing whether R has a value) than the giant 2-suited hands (where R's value is likely not useful).  I also used transfers to opener's minor (available after both 0-2 and 3-4) so that responder could accept the transfer and opener could show a second suit or offer to play 3N as a COG.

The different bids wtih long minors (min/inv/GF) can be pretty easily swapped around as long the min ones go through 1S and usually get out in 2m. Including the GF ones in the direct bids was mostly to cater to my 1♠-2♦ response (that you didn't like), since over that you only have one way to bid clubs weakly (3C) which meant that it worked out better if the GF hands bid directly instead (unless they had a 4cM, and then they could raise the 2♦ bidder in that major).

Quote

Something I like about your structure very much is that 1C-1H, 1S-1N/2C-2H is an artificial GF.  Seems very logical.  Thanks for posting your structure.

Yeah, it's similar to what you had posted, and makes nice use of the "free space" you get from passing the 1♥ bid with some of the min heart hands.

[straube]

Rob, in this version I'm including your 1C-1H, 1S-2D (0-2 majors). Opener should not be 2-2-(54) but could be (31)-(54) in which case he'll try the Moysian. All bidding would have to be natural after a 2D or 2M rebid.

1C-1H,

.....P-minimum 5H/4m or 5H332 or pathetic 6H
.....1S-1N(3-4)/2C(0-2)/2D(0-2) with both majors/2M(0-2) with 6M
..........2C/P of 2C=to play
..........2D-to play
..........2H-artificial GF OR spade minimum
...............2S-no super-accept spades
....................3C-(31)(54)
.........................3D-relays
..............................3H-1-3-(54)
..............................3S-3-1-(54)
....................3D-4-4-4-1
....................3H-4-4-1-4
....................3S-4-1-4-4
....................3N-1-4-4-4
...............2N-super-accept spades (4+ spades)
.....................3C-1-3-(54)
.....................3D-3-1-(54)
.....................3H-GT spades
.....................3S-to play
.....................3N-1-4-4-4
..........2S-medium spades
..........2N-GF clubs, possible side
...............3C-waits
..........3C-GF diamonds, possible side
...............3D-waits
..........3D-GF H
...............3H-waits
..........3H-GF S
...............3S-waits
..........3S-GF m/m
...............3N-waits
..........3N-to play
.....1N-good 16-20 balanced or 4441
.....2C-majors OR 25+ bal
..........2D-asks
...............2H-4S/5H or 5S/5H, minimum
....................2S-4 spades, 3-4
...............2S-5S/4H, minimum
...............2N-25+ bal
...............3C-4/6
...............3D-6/4
..........2H-fit or 2-cd preference
..........2S-4 spades, 0-2
.....2D-6H or medium 5H/4m or 23-24 balanced
..........2H-no super-accept for hearts
................P-minimum (not pathetic) 6H or medium 5H/4m
...............2S-medium 4S/5H
...............2N-23-24 balanced
...............3m-5H/5m
...............3H-medium 6H
.....2H-5S/4H, medium hand
.....2S-5S/4m, medium hand
.....2N-21-22 bal, possible 4441
.....3C-GF 5M/5C
..........3D-relays
...............3H-hearts
...............3S-spades
.....3D-GI+ 5M/5M
.....3H-GF 5H/5D
.....3S-GF 5S/5D

We're getting pretty good mileage I think out of the intervening 1S bid that comes from having 1H as the DN. But there's a cost. Think it's worth it? I think so but I'm not sure.

1C-1D (0-7), 0 base for positive responses, +2 for semipositives
1C-1H (0-4), +1 for unbalanced and +2 for balanced positives, +1 for semipositives
1C-1S (0-4), +1 for positive responses, +1 for semipositives

[rbforster]

I thought a little more about your comment on 20-21 balanced. If we need the space (to remove one of the 2N balanced hands), it'd probably be better to make the 2N opener stronger (23-24 or even GF balanced(!)) and keep the weaker ones in the strong club. This is because you won't lose your relays opposite a semipositive as often, since these very strong balanced hands are quite likely to go through a 1♣-1♥ double negative sequence which wouldn't have had relays anyway.

straube, on Feb 22 2010, 01:33 AM, said:

Rob, in this version I'm including your 1C-1H, 1S-2D (0-2 majors).  Opener should not be 2-2-(54) but could be (31)-(54) in which case he'll try the Moysian. 

I do think the 2♦ majors bid is pretty good, for avoiding some bad misfits. It might not even be a Moysian! Afterall, if responder is 5521, 2♣ as p/c is pretty unpleasant and will miss a good 5-3 or 5-4 major fit when opener was (4x)x5 or (3x)(54).

Just some general comments on your most recent iteration:

Quote

.....P-minimum 5H/4m or 5H332 or pathetic 6H

I think in the interest of conserving space you should be willing to pass more hands here. If you hadn't been playing a strong club, the auction would have gone 1♥-P, so even passing 45xx or x6xx shouldn't put you behind the field. In contrast, we're going to end up playing several other contracts at a higher level since we can't stop after 1♣-1♥ except in 1N or at the 2 level.

Quote

.....1S-1N(3-4)/2C(0-2)/2D(0-2) with both majors/2M(0-2) with 6M
..........2H-artificial GF OR spade minimum
...............2S-no super-accept spades
...............2N-super-accept spades (4+ spades)
..........2S-medium spades

I thought this was a decent way to include the min long spade hand, which incidentally gets the contract right-sided as well since we go through our all-purpose 1♠ rebid. That said, I don't think you need a super-accept since almost by definition a minimum spade hand isn't going to make game opposite 0-4 very often and I don't think it's worth risking getting too high.

Quote

.....2D-6H or medium 5H/4m or 23-24 balanced
..........2H-no super-accept for hearts
................P-minimum (not pathetic) 6H or medium 5H/4m
...............2S-medium 4S/5H
...............2N-23-24 balanced
...............3m-5H/5m
...............3H-medium 6H

The medium heart hand is getting pushed up to 3H. With no super-accept, you can just pass 2H. Also, I think the 5H/4+m medium hands are getting a little too high - you're playing 2H unilaterally without letting partner in that you have a 4m side suit, and you're forcing to 3H with 5H/5m when partner weakly prefers hearts to your minor. I think having 2H for a 5H/4+m and a known strength is much better since then you can both stop in 2H much of the time, or know to bail out to the minor when partner doesn't fit your hearts.

Also, and I think this is important, I really don't like both the 6+H and the 5H/4+m hands in the same bid. The length difference makes it too hard for responder to know whether to super-accept or not. 3♥ and an Ace is probably a super-accept opposite the 1-suiter, but probably isnt enough to justify pushing on in the 5H/4m case.

Quote

1C-1D (0-7),  0 base for positive responses, +2 for semipositives
1C-1H (0-4),  +1 for unbalanced and +2 for balanced positives, +1 for semipositives
1C-1S (0-4),  +1 for positive responses, +1 for semipositives

Just a quick note, but the balanced positives are +0, not +2. TOSR for example uses 1♣-1♠-1N-2♣ for reds, and 2♦+ for balanced just like I suggested. I guess we'd have a few more hand types in there (16 3-suiters), but it's not a whole lot worse on average since those are pretty rare hands (esp the 5440s).

[straube]

2N as 25+ would work, but I have need of 2N. I want it to show 6C/4H but I'll settle on 6C/4D to make it GCC legal.

Ok, I'm willing to pass minimum 6H hands, but I like putting my medium 5H/4m hands in with my medium 6H hands. I'm basically in the same position as 1C-1D (0-7), 1H-1S (0-4), 2H. I plan never to show the minor with 5H/4m but I will with 5H/5m. I don't think I have the room to distinguish 6H from 5H/4m and I'm not very concerned about it.

I like that 1C-1H, 2D shows only hearts because it means that responder will only bid 2H or 2S and won't take the 2N bid away.

Unfortunately, I think rarely a hand will want to superaccept for spades a la 1C-1H, 1S-1N, 2H. It's a pity I need this as a puppet because it would work nicely to have this bid relay for responder's shape. Sure, we're high, but I could divide the hands into 1-suited (4333, 5332, etc), 2-suited (4432, 5422 etc_, and 3-suited. Why would this work? Because the hands that would use it would primarily be 4441 hands and monster hands that could afford the space. Ah well.

Hm. I think I'm +1 for balanced and +2 for certain of the balanced because I used 1C-1S, 1N-2H to show 3-suited hands. In any case, my scheme is pretty close to Moscito. Can you find improvements for how the positives relay? Should be the same for the semipositives then.

Here's my latest then...


1C-1H,

.....P-minimum 5H/4m or 5H332 or minimum 6H
.....1S-1N(3-4)/2C(0-2)/2D(0-2) with both majors/2M(0-2) with 6M
..........2C/P of 2C=to play
..........2D-to play
..........2H-artificial GF OR spade minimum
...............2S-all without 4 spades
....................P-spade minimum
....................2N-relays
.........................3C-four hearts
..............................3D-relays
...................................3H-four clubs
...................................3S-hearts
...................................3N-four diamonds
..........................3D-four clubs
...............................3H-relays
....................................3S-diamonds
....................................3N-clubs
...........................3H-diamonds
...............2N-four spades, four hearts
...............3C-four spades, four clubs
...............3D-spades
...............3H-four spades, four diamonds
..........2S-medium spades
..........2N-GF clubs, possible side
...............3C-waits
..........3C-GF diamonds, possible side
..........3D-GF H
..........3H-GF S
..........3S-GF m/m
...............3N-no fit
..........3N-to play
.....1N-good 16-20 balanced or 4441
.....2C-majors OR 25+ bal
..........2D-asks
...............2H-4S/5H or 5S/5H, minimum
....................2S-4 spades, 3-4
...............2S-5S/4H, minimum
...............2N-25+ bal
...............3C-4/6
...............3D-6/4
..........2H-fit or 2-cd preference
..........2S-fit or 2-cd preference
.....2D-medium 6H or medium 5H/4m or 23-24 balanced
..........2H-no super-accept for hearts
................P-medium 6H or medium 5H/4m
...............2S-medium 4S/5H
...............2N-23-24 balanced
...............3m-5H/5m
...............3H-medium 6H
.....2H-5S/4H, medium hand
.....2S-5S/4m, medium hand
.....2N-21-22 bal, possible 4441
.....3C-GF 5M/5C
..........3D-relays
...............3H-hearts
...............3S-spades
.....3D-GI+ 5M/5M
.....3H-GF 5H/5D
.....3S-GF 5S/5D