[hanp]

If responder bids 4S, opener has a slam force.

[jdonn]

Justin gave me only responder's hand yesterday and I bid 4♠ over 4♥. I really didn't think too long before deciding passing was wrong (although I thought a long time about exactly what to bid) so I may be a crazy overbidder. But that means I have to blame responder.

[hanp]

I just gave the hand to two friends. They bid 3S as responder and reached 7S.

[nigel_k]

No blame.

It's just unfortunate that responder has no way to convey their diamond shortage.

3♠ instead of 4♦ is tempting even though it's not a cue bid and partner won't know hearts are trumps until I bid them later. But if partner bids 4♠ we will be very poorly placed because he could have six spades and diamond wastage, e.g. A10xxxx Kx KJx xx, but could also have five good spades and no diamond wastage as on the actual hand.

[aguahombre]

nigel_k, on Feb 8 2010, 12:07 PM, said:

3♠ instead of 4♦ is tempting even though it's not a cue bid and partner won't know hearts are trumps until I bid them later. But if partner bids 4♠ we will be very poorly placed because he could have six spades and diamond wastage, e.g. A10xxxx Kx KJx xx, but could also have five good spades and no diamond wastage as on the actual hand.

The example ATXXXX KX KJX XX probably would have bid 3NT over 3C.

With the actual hands, after:

1S 2H
2S 3C
3H 4D

North might choose 4S. The 4D call by responder might not have been clear to opener, but it does suggest that (1) hearts are trump and that (2) Responder is willing to go past 4H. (edit:) It already sounds to responder as if Opener does not have much in diamonds before the 4D bid.

[kenrexford]

Just to recap, for the "let's try 3♠" crowd:

1♠-P-2♥-P-
2♠(waiting)-P-3♣-P-
3♥-P-3♠-P-
???

There are some comments about Responder not knowing what to do if Opener bids 4♠. One opinion is that Opener could have diamond wastage or not diamond wastage.

I repeat my prior comment. If Opener has no diamond wastage (as in this situation), I think he can bid 4♦, which shows that (or should). The rest of the likely auction:

1♠-P-2♥-P-
2♠(waiting)-P-3♣-P-
3♥-P-3♠-P-
4♦(no diamond wastage)-P-?

Responder now bids according to partnership rules. Of course, these are tough here. For me:

4♥ or 4♠ = to play
4NT = RKCB for hearts
5♣ = RKCB for spades
5♦ = Exclusion Blackwood (not RKCB)

[PhantomSac]

Why would 4D show no diamond wastage specifically. You STILL haven't set trumps or found an 8 card fit yet, and responder could still be 2524 with no diamond stopper, so having a "no wastage" bid instead of a cuebid could be bad.

It seems to me like 4D over 3S should generically agree spades as trumps and try for slam, with 4C being natural to try to get to 5/6C with 5233 opposite 2515. 4H and 4S should be an attempt to play there. But I'm sure some people would want a "choice of games" move in an auction like this also.

[awm]

I'll blame north here.

South seems to be 6♥/4♣. If south had this shape and a minimum, he would bid 4♥ only. So for 4♦ he should either have extras (say 15+ hcp) or an eleventh round card.

North's cards are pretty much all working, with honors in the round suits and quick tricks in spades. Given what's known about responder's hand, it seems like if he has 0-1♦ slam will almost always be good, and if he has 2♦ then slam might be okay (say x AQJxxx Ax KQTx) and five-level safety is virtually assured.

[kenrexford]

PhantomSac, on Feb 8 2010, 03:38 PM, said:

Why would 4D show no diamond wastage specifically. You STILL haven't set trumps or found an 8 card fit yet, and responder could still be 2524 with no diamond stopper, so having a "no wastage" bid instead of a cuebid could be bad.

It seems to me like 4D over 3S should generically agree spades as trumps and try for slam, with 4C being natural to try to get to 5/6C with 5233 opposite 2515. 4H and 4S should be an attempt to play there. But I'm sure some people would want a "choice of games" move in an auction like this also.

I'm not sure how to answer this.

On the one hand, "no diamond wastage" is not required. 4♦ simply shows slam interest, with no diamond wastage being a major factor when in doubt. Or, the "wastage" is compensated, if you will.

That said, "no stopper" and "no wastage" are fairly similar.

[dburn]

Would not blame anyone very much for the actual auction - one of the toughest things to do is identify key jacks that solidify suits.

Greatly prefer 3♠ to 4♦ over 3♥, chiefly because it gives responder a chance. If opener does not bid 3NT or 4♣ next, responder can hope for something like his actual hand - 5=2=4=2 with not much in diamonds and (maybe) not ♣K, hence his opening bid is all in the majors. Still, ♠J is a very big card, and like shyams I see no way for responder to ascertain its presence with certainty. Move that jack to the diamond suit, and game is high enough.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

South should have bid 4C instead of 4D.

The advantage of 4C is, that South gets to hear, if North has wastage
in diamonds.
After North bids 4H, South knowes, that North does not have neither the
Ace nor the King of diamonds, so he knowes, that North will have reasonable
spades, which means the value of the Quees raises, now South could bid 4S.

An alternative would be to bid 3S instead of 4D - as long as you are sure, that
3H did set the trump suit, if 3S could be interpreted as alternative strain to play
in, I think I prefer 4C.

But I dont think, there is a lot blame to distribute, espesially if the partnership
is not playing long together - 4C could well be interpreted as natural, say 6-5.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hanp]

What do you think 4C says, and what do you think 4C and then 4D says?

[whereagles]

1♠ 2♥
2♠ 3♣
3♦ 3♥
4♥ 6♥

3♦ = asking for stopper (would have bid 3NT with one, right?)
3♥ = no diamond stop, but I have 6 hearts
4♥ = natural, preference
6♥ = there's no diamond wastage, so this should have a play for

If 2♠ were undefined as to strength (15+ still possible), South could have made some grand slam try after 4♥, instead of just bidding the small slam.

[PhantomSac]

Results... responder was Bob Hamman and he thought his pass of 4H was bad... I thought he was resulting himself even though I know he doesn't really result.

At the other table it went 1S p 2H 4D(!) p 5D 6C p 6H. I overcalled 4D on x xx KQJTxx Kxxx and think it's quite likely that the opps would have had trouble getting there had I just bid 3D, so ultimately I probably get the charge for losing this swing.

I thought if anyone didn't do enough it was opener, but I thought their final auction was reasonable.