[mike777]

ya as a nonexpert I would have just bid 4h over 2h with just xxx.....xxx....KQxx...xxx


I assume 2d promised an ace or a k.


I assume 2c and then 2h often will be a 4 loser hand.

I grant I got a bit extra.
---------------

that means with OP....I showed more than this. I made two slam tries.

[straube]

Maybe it's regional, but my understanding of the auction is...

2D-establishes GF
3H-slam try, demands cue bidding until 4H is reached
3S-spade control, shows no extra
4H-does not deny a club or other control

I think the auction should have gone

2C-2D,
2H-3H,
3S-3N,
4C-(RKC)

3N can't be to play because it doesn't make sense to start a slam sequence in a suit and then reverse course with an offer of 3N. 3N denies a club control and gives opener the opportunity to show one. After 4C, there isn't much sense in bidding 4D unless you plan to pass partner's 4H bid; 4D might let partner use RKC but you've nothing but the HQ to show him and if partner agonizes before signing off in 4H, then you risk a director call if you bid on.

Btw, not saying that 3N as serious isn't a better use of the bid.

[kenrexford]

straube, on Feb 6 2010, 10:49 PM, said:

Maybe it's regional, but my understanding of the auction is...

2D-establishes GF
3H-slam try, demands cue bidding until 4H is reached
3S-spade control, shows no extra
4H-does not deny a club or other control

I think the auction should have gone

2C-2D,
2H-3H,
3S-3N,
4C-(RKC)

3N can't be to play because it doesn't make sense to start a slam sequence in a suit and then reverse course with an offer of 3N. 3N denies a club control and gives opener the opportunity to show one. After 4C, there isn't much sense in bidding 4D unless you plan to pass partner's 4H bid; 4D might let partner use RKC but you've nothing but the HQ to show him and if partner agonizes before signing off in 4H, then you risk a director call if you bid on.

Btw, not saying that 3N as serious isn't a better use of the bid.

If 3NT is a denial cue (denial of clubs), an interesting if unusual situation-specific (?) treatment (one that seems at first glance overly limiting), then is 4♣ a diamond denial cue? If so, what is 4♦? Showing both controls? Just curious.

[debrose]

kfay, on Feb 5 2010, 12:37 PM, said:

By the way, this hand brought up a discussion with another partner of mine.

People who have thought about it probably realize that the best way to play:

2♣-2♦
2♠-3♠
4X

isn't acutally a 'cue' persay, but an actual suit, since we may not belong in spades (see many many many bridgeworld bidding problems).

Well.. what's the difference between that auction and this auction up through 3♠?  How do I show 4=5 in the majors and end up possibly playing in spades?  Do people generally agree to play this way in this auction as well and, if so, how do you resolve suit agreements after opener bids 3♠?  Furthermore, how do I even cuebid if that's the case?  Starting to think that you can't really do everything when it comes to hearts...

Kevin,
When I have the agreement to play 2♣-2♦, 2♠-3♠, new suit = 4+ card suit, yes we also play 2♣-2♦, 2♥-3♥, 3♠ shows a 4+-card suit. In both cases we use 3N as an artificial general slam try (for mad scientists, I suppose it would make more sense over 3♥ to use 3♠ as the general slam try, and 3N as the spade suit). Not sure I get your point about not being able to do everything when it comes to hearts - what can't you do there, that you can over spades?

[straube]

kenrexford, on Feb 7 2010, 09:08 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 6 2010, 10:49 PM, said:

Maybe it's regional, but my understanding of the auction is...

2D-establishes GF
3H-slam try, demands cue bidding until 4H is reached
3S-spade control, shows no extra
4H-does not deny a club or other control

I think the auction should have gone

2C-2D,
2H-3H,
3S-3N,
4C-(RKC)

3N can't be to play because it doesn't make sense to start a slam sequence in a suit and then reverse course with an offer of 3N.  3N denies a club control and gives opener the opportunity to show one.  After 4C, there isn't much sense in bidding 4D unless you plan to pass partner's 4H bid;  4D might let partner use RKC but you've nothing but the HQ to show him and if partner agonizes before signing off in 4H, then you risk a director call if you bid on.

Btw, not saying that 3N as serious isn't a better use of the bid.

If 3NT is a denial cue (denial of clubs), an interesting if unusual situation-specific (?) treatment (one that seems at first glance overly limiting), then is 4♣ a diamond denial cue? If so, what is 4♦? Showing both controls? Just curious.

I've been thinking about that question, too, and I'm not sure of local expert practice. I had the same thought, though, that 4C would deny a diamond control and 4D would show both. It would certainly have been useful on this particular hand.

The only question I have is whether the locals are willing to show shortness before an ace or king. For example, could responder have Kxxx Qxx Kxxxx x ? And not willing to bid 4C before showing either king? On this hand, responder would appreciate hearing about the DA...even if the CA isn't held.

I like 4C denying a diamond control and 4D showing both.

[CSGibson]

straube, on Feb 7 2010, 11:14 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 7 2010, 09:08 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 6 2010, 10:49 PM, said:

Maybe it's regional, but my understanding of the auction is...

2D-establishes GF
3H-slam try, demands cue bidding until 4H is reached
3S-spade control, shows no extra
4H-does not deny a club or other control

I think the auction should have gone

2C-2D,
2H-3H,
3S-3N,
4C-(RKC)

3N can't be to play because it doesn't make sense to start a slam sequence in a suit and then reverse course with an offer of 3N.  3N denies a club control and gives opener the opportunity to show one.  After 4C, there isn't much sense in bidding 4D unless you plan to pass partner's 4H bid;  4D might let partner use RKC but you've nothing but the HQ to show him and if partner agonizes before signing off in 4H, then you risk a director call if you bid on.

Btw, not saying that 3N as serious isn't a better use of the bid.

If 3NT is a denial cue (denial of clubs), an interesting if unusual situation-specific (?) treatment (one that seems at first glance overly limiting), then is 4♣ a diamond denial cue? If so, what is 4♦? Showing both controls? Just curious.

I've been thinking about that question, too, and I'm not sure of local expert practice. This sequence does comes up rather frequently...as specific as it is..and without a better agreement for 3N, it's a useful sort of trick. Most of the time opener will be able to cue 4C, but when he can't, I think he's still obligated to bid 4D with a diamond control. I think slam is pretty hopeless at this point unless responder has a stiff club and declined to bid 4C with Kxxx Qxx Axxxx x or something like that. I think it would make more sense for 4D to show both a club and diamond control while 4C would show only a club control, but I'm not sure that's what people do here.

I'm from the same area as David. 3N is gernerally accepted as asking you to cue-bid your cheapest control. If you have AK of clubs, and Qx of diamonds, you might still bid 3N as an inquiry into the diamond situation, as an explicit order to tell about kings as well as aces.

[straube]

CSGibson, on Feb 7 2010, 01:19 PM, said:

straube, on Feb 7 2010, 11:14 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 7 2010, 09:08 AM, said:

straube, on Feb 6 2010, 10:49 PM, said:

Maybe it's regional, but my understanding of the auction is...

2D-establishes GF
3H-slam try, demands cue bidding until 4H is reached
3S-spade control, shows no extra
4H-does not deny a club or other control

I think the auction should have gone

2C-2D,
2H-3H,
3S-3N,
4C-(RKC)

3N can't be to play because it doesn't make sense to start a slam sequence in a suit and then reverse course with an offer of 3N.  3N denies a club control and gives opener the opportunity to show one.  After 4C, there isn't much sense in bidding 4D unless you plan to pass partner's 4H bid;  4D might let partner use RKC but you've nothing but the HQ to show him and if partner agonizes before signing off in 4H, then you risk a director call if you bid on.

Btw, not saying that 3N as serious isn't a better use of the bid.

If 3NT is a denial cue (denial of clubs), an interesting if unusual situation-specific (?) treatment (one that seems at first glance overly limiting), then is 4♣ a diamond denial cue? If so, what is 4♦? Showing both controls? Just curious.

I've been thinking about that question, too, and I'm not sure of local expert practice. This sequence does comes up rather frequently...as specific as it is..and without a better agreement for 3N, it's a useful sort of trick. Most of the time opener will be able to cue 4C, but when he can't, I think he's still obligated to bid 4D with a diamond control. I think slam is pretty hopeless at this point unless responder has a stiff club and declined to bid 4C with Kxxx Qxx Axxxx x or something like that. I think it would make more sense for 4D to show both a club and diamond control while 4C would show only a club control, but I'm not sure that's what people do here.

I'm from the same area as David. 3N is gernerally accepted as asking you to cue-bid your cheapest control. If you have AK of clubs, and Qx of diamonds, you might still bid 3N as an inquiry into the diamond situation, as an explicit order to tell about kings as well as aces.

I think Chris is right about "bid the lowest control you have" being area standard. If he's right, then perhaps 4C by responder would likely limit the hand. Sounding like Serious 3N.