[jdonn]

It's hard. You're right switch partner's black suits and you are cold. Or make his diamodns AJ, or his spades AQx. Of course moving on doesn't mean you are forced to slam, but it does look like a bit of guesswork.

[kfay]

By the way, this hand brought up a discussion with another partner of mine.

People who have thought about it probably realize that the best way to play:

2♣-2♦
2♠-3♠
4X

isn't acutally a 'cue' persay, but an actual suit, since we may not belong in spades (see many many many bridgeworld bidding problems).

Well.. what's the difference between that auction and this auction up through 3♠? How do I show 4=5 in the majors and end up possibly playing in spades? Do people generally agree to play this way in this auction as well and, if so, how do you resolve suit agreements after opener bids 3♠? Furthermore, how do I even cuebid if that's the case? Starting to think that you can't really do everything when it comes to hearts...

[ArtK78]

I suppose you will all just laugh at me if I suggest that maybe the opening hand wasn't a 2♣ opener?

It isn't even close to what I would consider a 2♣ opener.

Some time back, an attempt was made to define a 2♣ opening bid as a hand where, if you opened one of a suit and partner passed, you would say "Oh, s**t!" This one doesn't come close to meeting that definition.

[jdonn]

ArtK78, on Feb 5 2010, 01:04 PM, said:

I suppose you will all just laugh at me if I suggest that maybe the opening hand wasn't a 2♣ opener?

It isn't even close to what I would consider a 2♣ opener.

Some time back, an attempt was made to define a 2♣ opening bid as a hand where, if you opened one of a suit and partner passed, you would say "Oh, s**t!" This one doesn't come close to meeting that definition.

If partner had a balanced yarb you wouldn't mind taking your chances in 3NT. Exactly what would it take to make you say "oh sh*t" if you opened the bidding and partner passed? And you not only say this hand doesn't reach that, but you say it doesn't even come close?? Standard exageration?

[ArtK78]

If partner has a balanced yarborough he is likely to raise hearts at some point in the auction, and you may or may not get to 3NT.

My primary complaint is not so much whether you can make a game opposite nothing. It is how the low floor on 2♣ opening bids makes constructive bidding after a 2♣ opening bid so much more difficult than it should be to justify starting the bidding at the 2 level. You have deprived yourself of a level of bidding without sufficiently defining your hand. The problem is further exacerbated when the opponents interfere.

[Siegmund]

Quote

Wouldn't I certainly bid this way with xxx xxx KQxx xxx or xxx Qxx Kxxx xxx (and maybe even xxx xxx Kxxx xxx)?

Depends partly what 2♦ was. If you're playing 2♥ bust, the 2♦ bid promised one likely trick, and since all you have is the DK I would expect it to go 2♣-2♦-2♥-4♥, to say hearts are trump but you would have nothing to tell your partner about if you allowed him the space between 3♥ and 4♥ to explore for slam.

Queen of trump plus a side king is too good for that, so your 2nd hand quoted is about the worst hand I'd bid 2♦ then 3♥ but I'm not counting anything extra for my ♣Q on the actual hand. Partner called my attention to my trumps and my spades, so my xxx spades is going to be a major disappointment.

And yes, as others said, partner is a teensy bit weak for his 2♣ opener. That said, it looks like we had an otherwise successful auction, avoiding a slam that needs a squeeze or a gift to be better than 25%.

[jdonn]

Isn't it 50% on a non-spade lead and at least 25% if not better on a spade lead? And cold on any lead if opener's black suit's are switched? I wouldn't be a very big crime to reach this slam.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Feb 5 2010, 09:05 PM, said:

Isn't it 50% on a non-spade lead and at least 25% if not better on a spade lead? And cold on any lead if opener's black suit's are switched? I wouldn't be a very big crime to reach this slam.

It's way better than 25% on a spade lead.

On the king of spades lead, you are probably safe giving the opening leader the queen as well. There are probably better lines, but one simple one is to duck the lead, win the e.g. trump switch (assuming they don't switch away from the CK), cash the black aces and run trumps coming down to


-
-
KQxx
Q

J
x
Ax
10


This makes whenever LHO has the long diamonds, or RHO has the long diamonds and the KJ of clubs, or about 60%.

On a low spade lead to the king you will probably play the same way - no-one false cards with the K from KQ on your right here.

On a spade lead to the queen it's a bit of a guess, but you can still come down to the same ending and make every time the hand with the spade guard has the long diamonds.

You are also rather better than 50% on a non-spade lead, as you can e.g. play a club to the 10 early then have good squeeze chances.

[FrancesHinden]

By the way, for all this talk about serious or non-serious 3NT bids, this is another good hand for playing 3NT as natural.

2C - 2D - 2H - 3H -

3S = I have both majors
4C/4D = I have a club/diamond side suit
3NT = I have a balanced (6322) hand

Or, if you play Kokish,
2C - 2D - 2H (strong balanced or hearts) - 2S (relay) - 3NT = I have a minimum 2C opening which is balanced with 6 hearts.

None of this helps on the example hand, because it requires only very minor fiddling with opener's 6322 hand to make 6H either huge or cold (AKx AKJ10xx Ax Kx; AQx AKJ10xx Ax Kx is a nice Morton's fork (or the spade finesse), Ax AKJxxx Ax AJx is virtually cold, as is Ax AKJxxx AJx Kx (and that's not a 2C opening for most people))

[Siegmund]

I see I misunderestimated the chance of setting up that squeeze on the spade lead. Thanks for pointing out those extra chances, Frances.

No, it's not a crime to reach the slam. I just don't necessarily think it's a crime to miss it either.

[jdonn]

Siegmund, on Feb 5 2010, 04:59 PM, said:

I see I misunderestimated the chance of setting up that squeeze on the spade lead. Thanks for pointing out those extra chances, Frances.

No, it's not a crime to reach the slam. I just don't necessarily think it's a crime to miss it either.

Like has been said, switching opener's black suits makes it absolutely cold. So if you miss it because you realized that then you perhaps have done well. But if you would reach the same contract in either case and just randomly missed it then you have done something pretty bad.

[kenrexford]

Couple of thoughts:

1. Opening 2♣ seems obvious. If partner bids 2♥ as a double negative, bid 2NT. WTP?

2. With only the diamond King, raise 2♥ to 4♥.

3. The wrap-around cue would have worked wonders here. (4♦ as control of everything and slam interest, not enough to bypass 4♥)

[fred]

kenrexford, on Feb 5 2010, 10:06 PM, said:

1. Opening 2♣ seems obvious.  If partner bids 2♥ as a double negative, bid 2NT.  WTP?

Agree that 2C is clear - this hand passes the "balanced yarborough test". But over 2H (double negative) I disagree that 2NT is WTP.

IMO if there is a bid that qualifies for a WTP, it is 3NT - a call that I think is clearly superior to both 2NT and 3H (and Pass!).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[kenrexford]

fred, on Feb 5 2010, 05:23 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 5 2010, 10:06 PM, said:

1. Opening 2♣ seems obvious.  If partner bids 2♥ as a double negative, bid 2NT.  WTP?

Agree that 2C is clear - this hand passes the "balanced yarborough test". But over 2H (double negative) I disagree that 2NT is WTP.

IMO if there is a bid that qualifies for a WTP, it is 3NT - a call that I think is clearly superior to both 2NT and 3H (and Pass!).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

Well, sure. I'd bid 3NT also. But, baby steps. If is having trouble even opening 2♣ with this hand, well at keast a 2NT option on rebid works better than a 1♥ opening.

[fred]

kenrexford, on Feb 5 2010, 11:58 PM, said:

Well, sure.  I'd bid 3NT also.  But, baby steps.  If is having trouble even opening 2♣ with this hand, well at keast a 2NT option on rebid works better than a 1♥ opening.

If opening hands like this 2C is something new for you, I may be able to offer another useful tip:

If partner responds 2D, you should rebid 2H (not 2NT) even if you play Kokish.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[kenrexford]

This sort of brings up a thought that has been in my brain recently.

In Puppet Stayman sequences, it seems to me that Responder bidding four of a minor to show 4-4 in the majors wastes space, especially in a Kokish situation, where both majors have already been bid. Seems better to bid 3♥, hoping to find a spade fit (with all of the benefits of the extra level of space) and then to insist on hearts if partner bids 3NT (with perhaps four-level calls now agreeing hearts and being cuebids).

In other words...

2♣-P-2♦-P-
2♥-P-2♠-P-
2NT-P-3♣-P-
3♦-P-3♥(spades)-P-
3♠(agrees, cue starts)

or

...3♥-P-
3NT-P-4♣/♦/♥ = hearts agreed, cues = slammish

Seems better to me.

However, there also is a reality that in several auctions Opener might have a 6-card heart suit. There seems to be space for checking on that possibility, with Opener, for example, bidding 3NT with six hearts (rather than with no 4-card major). In that event, the above would need to be tweaked. After ...3♣, Opener bids 3♦ with no 5+ major, but not promising a 4-card major. If Responder has one major, he shows it the normal way. With both majors, he bids 3♥. If Opener has spade support, he bids above 3NT (cues if desired), a slightly less-than-deal result (losing 3♠ and the sequences after 3♠). However, that allows 3♠ to show four hearts (not four spades), which allows cues as described above, and 3NT to deny a 4-card major (after which minors would be natural), which has a benefit in those no-major sequences (slightly).

Not sure whether this is important enough to merit this change, but maybe, especially in sequences like 2♣-P-2♥(neg)-P-2NT. Meaning, when a six-card heart suit is more likely.

[rbforster]

I eagerly await Ken's fully formed vision of puppet stayman that allows responder to find opener's 6 card majors and singletons, in addition to the more pedestrian features we're used to asking about.

[rogerclee]

Rob F, on Feb 6 2010, 09:50 AM, said:

I eagerly await Ken's fully formed vision of puppet stayman that allows responder to find opener's 6 card majors and singletons, in addition to the more pedestrian features we're used to asking about.

Why wait?

2N-3C
3H-3S

3C puppet stayman, 3H shows 5, 3S asks:

3N = diamond or other major shortness (4C asks)
4C = club shortness
4D = no shortness, 6 cards
4H = no shortness, 5 cards

4S thereafter asks for shape; after 4D, opener bids their doubleton (so exact 5332 is known) and over 4H they bid their 3 card suit (so exact 6322 is known).

[CSGibson]

ArtK78, on Feb 5 2010, 11:16 AM, said:

If partner has a balanced yarborough he is likely to raise hearts at some point in the auction, and you may or may not get to 3NT.

My primary complaint is not so much whether you can make a game opposite nothing. It is how the low floor on 2♣ opening bids makes constructive bidding after a 2♣ opening bid so much more difficult than it should be to justify starting the bidding at the 2 level. You have deprived yourself of a level of bidding without sufficiently defining your hand. The problem is further exacerbated when the opponents interfere.

It's a 21 HCP hand with 4 Aces and a great 6 card major. What is your complaint, again?

[kenrexford]

Let's try Muppet!

Basic Muppet is Blah-Blah-Blah-3♣-?

3♦ = 2-4 spades, 2-3 hearts. 3H then asks for spade length (3S=3, 3N=2, 4-L=4, with new as cue and 4). 3S instead asks for heart length (3NT=2; 4-L=three with cues). Problem hand = 5♥/4♠ = transfer then 3♠.

3NT = 4-4 majors.

3S = 5S/2-3H.

3H = 4-5 hearts, 2-3 spades. 3S asks how many (3NT=4, 4-L for 5). Problem hand = 3♥/5♠ = transfer to spades and partner overrides with 2♠/5♥ to bid 3NT.

Can we get 6-card hearts into matrix?

Well, if Responder never bids 3♣ without at least two hearts, sure. Opener simply responds to 3♣ at the four-level with six hearts (cuebidding if desired).

This creates an obvious problem hand of a stiff heart with 3-4 spades. But, maybe that's a good bid for 2NT-P-3NT. With one or both minors and slam interest, Responder bids 3♠ as a hard relay to 3NT ("hard" because Opener cannot "superaccept" by bidding 4♣ or something). However, Responder also bids 3♠ as a relay to 3NT to play in 3NT (with the obvious downside of enabling a lead-directing double or slightly lead-inferential non-double).

3NT directly, then, would show game only with a stiff heart and 3-4 spades. This in and of itself has some merit (being able to show this hand, that is). Opener can then place the contract in spades, or pass with heart wasted, or 4♥ as a sort of "Bluhmer," or bid a minor naturally. If the spade contract is a Moysian occasionally, so? Probably right anyway. If the contract is 3NT with a 4-4 spade fit because Opener has wasted values in hearts, that's probably right anyway.

Hmmmm.

Might then want 2NT-P-4♣ or 2NT-P-4♠ as 3-4 spades, stiff heart, and slammish?