[the hog]

jdonn, on Feb 4 2010, 02:56 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Feb 4 2010, 02:44 AM, said:

To Josh, I think the 1NT rebid by opener is horrible!

You gave me a hand you would open something else to avoid a rebid problem, then made me open what you wouldn't open and gave me an auction with the rebid problem, then told me my choice was horrible. Gee thanks!

Fair comment.

[PhantomSac]

The_Hog, on Feb 4 2010, 02:44 AM, said:

Fine, for you 2D is clearly a reverse; for me and for some others it is not. What you shouldn't do in a forum such as this is to assume that your ideas are the only ones that have any credibility

Lol. I guess you haven't read any of my posts in this thread. Here is a brief reminder; I have stated numerous times that I would expect few people to take 2D as a reverse, I believe I said less than 1 in 10 club players, and that you should never bid 2D with a pickup partner with a reverse as you will probably get passed. I suppose it's too much to ask you to read posts before making these comments though.

[gnasher]

The_Hog, on Feb 4 2010, 05:43 AM, said:

The other side of the coin:
xx
Kx
AKxx
Kxxxx

xxx
Axxx
QJxx
xx

1C (1S) X (P)
Would you rather play 2C or 2D? I don't think anyone would advocate a 1NT bid by opener.

I would advocate a 1NT rebid by opener. It's what I was going to bid in the (for me) equivalent uncontested auction of 1♣-1♥. If we play there, partner will probably have four spades. And even if they run five spade tricks, that doesn't mean we're in the wrong contract.

[helene_t]

Should responder, after opener's 1NT rebid, check for a spade stopper on the way to 3NT? It wouldn't occur to me.

BTW if opps play Rozenkrants (sp?) redoubles, it is not so likely that their spades run if opener couldn't bid his spades twice (or make a 2♠ overcall), and advancer couldn't rdbl.

[Codo]

Hi Helene,

yes it is a common theme that you need to rebid 1 NT without a stopper and a balanced hand. In this case yes, partner should be aware and should ask.

[phil_20686]

There is an issue here that has not been discussed at all, which is the style of the 1c opener. If you play (as I do) that all balanced hands w/o 5cM open a club, even if you have 5 diamonds, then this is a legitamtey problematic auction. This is now a totally different problem from when 1c normally shows clubs. Do i really want to be forced to bid a nt with 2353 shape, or even 2-2-4-5, when i have not even shown my club suit yet?

In this situation I would tend to play that dble is just t/o. 1fter 1c-1s, after 1c-1d/h dble simple continues the transferwash style so

1c-1h-x = 4+ spades
1c-1h-1s = <4 spades.

After 1d(5+) 1s x there is obviously no problem and woudl play this as a pure negative double.

I think in this type of style 1c 1s x should not be made on hands that cannot play in 3c or 2d, and would often elect to bid a nt with 4-4-(32) shape and partner can check for the major himself if he wants to.

[helene_t]

No our 1♣ opening is standard except that we open 1♣ with 4=4=3=2.

[hotShot]

1♣ - 1♠ - ?
and you hold something like Qxxx AJxx xx xxx.
Partner can bid pass, dbl or 1NT.
If your agreement is that "dbl" shows ♥ and ♦, than you have to bid 1NT or pass.
If your agreement that "dbl" shows 4+ ♥, than you can make a different use of 1NT (e.g. stronger hands) and pass.

1♣ - 1♠ - X - p
?
Now if you play that openers 2♦ is a reverse (the logical choice ♣=>♦), than weaker hands have to bid 1[NT] even if they don't have a ♠ stopper.
If you want that 1NT promises a ♠ stopper, than you have to pass, rebid ♣, bid 2♥ with 3 card-support (if 3334) and 2♦ cannot show reverse strength.

In both cases your partnership has to pick it's poison.

Edited: Optimized using helene_t's input.

This post has been edited by hotShot: 2010-February-04, 09:18

[helene_t]

hoshot, nobody is arguing that 2♥ is a reverse, the whole point of playing negative doubles is to be able to find the 4-4 hearts fit even if opener is minimum. The uncontested auction 1♣-1♥-2♥ isn't a reverse either.

You won't have to rebid 2♣ on a 4-card suit. With 4-4 minors we open 1♦.

With 3334 the poison you pick is 2♥ if you have no spade stopper and 1NT promises one.

You have to pick your poison with (32)35 and no spade stopper, but that is true even if 2♦ were not a reverse. It is not very attractive to bid 2♦ on a 3-card if that isn't forcing. You could find yourself in a 3-3 fit. If you bid 2♥ on a 3-card at least you have a 4-3 fit.

So the only situation in which playing 2♦ as a non-reverse helps you is if you have 4♦5♣ and no spade stopper. I am not convinced that it helps you even in that case: 2♣ could easily be your best spot, you may play 1NT as not showing a spade stopper, or you may have opened 1♦ in the first place.

[PhantomSac]

Hi Helene,

In this auction more than any other auction in bridge it is "common" to rebid 1N without a stopper. Doing this maintains the integrity of all of your other rebids, and it is most likely the best thing to do with that hand type anyways. If you have say xx in spades, it is extremely likely partner has length and therefore a stopper in spades with RHO passing. Of course it is not 100 % or close, but it is very likely, and even if he doesn't you can still make 1N after losing the first 5.

[helene_t]

Thanks Justin.

But on this forum people like to raise with 3-card support whenever they have a small doubleton. Now we are talking about a small doubleton/trippleton in a suit which has been bid by LHO. Wouldn't those of you who would have raise a 1♥ bid on three with a particular also bid 2♥ on three in response to a neg dbl, holding the same hand?

[Lobowolf]

[quote name='The_Hog' date='Feb 4 2010, 01:02 AM'] [quote name='aguahombre' date='Feb 4 2010, 12:53 PM'] open 1D or rebid 1NT? I would open 1D and rebid 2C...so that hand is out. [/QU

Yes, so would I and therefore I also would avoid that problem. However lots who post here wouldn't open 1D and hate the bid.

The point I am making is that systems should be a cohesive unified whole. [/quote]
Looking at it as a unified whole, it seems that you're making a further argument for why 2[di] is a reverse, by providing a minimum with 4 diamonds and 5 clubs and saying you'd open 1[di].

You say in a later post that if the doubler only has 4 hearts, he "usually has clubs or diamonds," which puts you in agreement with most of us Americans - responder does NOT promise diamonds. So what's the disagreement about what the double means?

Then in addition to the fact that responder doesn't promise diamonds (even if he "usually has" one of the minors), there's the further inference that with a minimum 4-5, you'd open 1[di]. So when instead you open 1[cl], we can rule that nice 2-2-4-5 13-count out - must have extras. But I suspect that I'm oversimplifying your minor suit opening choices and there must be some hands in between a 13-count and a reverse that you'd open 1[cl] with 4-5 in the minors.

[PhantomSac]

helene_t, on Feb 4 2010, 01:10 PM, said:

Thanks Justin.

But on this forum people like to raise with 3-card support whenever they have a small doubleton. Now we are talking about a small doubleton/trippleton in a suit which has been bid by LHO. Wouldn't those of you who would have raise a 1♥ bid on three with a particular also bid 2♥ on three in response to a neg dbl, holding the same hand?

Someone once told me that they didn't think it could work if opener could bid 2H with 3, and responder could make a neg X with 3, even if both of those were rare, not really because you might play a 3-3 fit (two rare things happening at once is extremely rare obv), but because it was too much to sort out later (for instance, which partner can compete to 3H over 2S if both might have 3?)

I think if you will never make a negative X in this auction with the "problem" hand types that have 3 hearts like xxx KQx Axxx Jxx or whatever, it is fine to bid 2H with hands that you would raise 1m p 1H p 2H with, and probably most hands with xx spades will be included. I still think it would be wrong to be bidding 2H with xxx spades though, your reasoning for bidding 2H rather than 1N shouldn't be that you lack a spade stopper, it should be that you think 2H will be a better partial than 1N usually based on your worthless doubleton.

[Dirk Kuijt]

FWIW, I found this on the Bridge World site as part of the description of Bridge World Standard:

http://www.bridgeworld.com/default.asp?d=b...=bwsall.html#VE

Quote

After one club — (one of a major) — double — (pass) — ?, opener’s two-diamond rebid does not show extra values.

[aguahombre]

dirk...all that shows is that BWS is not represented here, and if they ever revise it, they might consider other logic.

This is a discussion of why people treat certain things in certain ways....dogmatic is quoting someone else, without thinking

[Codo]

Aqua did I miss your irony sign somewhere?

Who cares about indian tribes who use BWS?

[mike777]

This may have been discussed but I just repeat it.



2d is clearly a reverse


A reverse does not promise extras 100%.


Does 2d promise extras 100% for you?..If yes easy.... I mean if any, all reverses mean lots of extras...easy......but does not promise extras in any all all cases ok.


1) what the heck is a reverse
2) If pard reverses what does it mean?

[Ulrich]

Vat dis Mike talking about? I understanding nuttink!
He is saying extra is good and not extra is god. I thinking his name is Mike Sitting. - Sitting on defence.
Again I showing dieses hand to nummer 2 and nummer 3 in Liechtenstein. 2D = nuzzink extra, 3D is extras in Liechtenstein

[hanp]

lol

[PhantomSac]

Ulrich has such a weird posting history. Came here in 2004, posted sporadically through 2004, made 4 posts in 05-beginning of 07, disappears for 2.5 years, comes back in 09 and suddenly can't speak english very well (despite being fluent before!), and makes a couple of posts in 010, all the while having 25 total posts.