[kfay]

Scoring: IMP

1♣-(Dbl)-?

---

[Jlall]

1S

[the hog]

Pass of course. I am not a wide boy.

[Fluffy]

pass.

Curios with people like justin who like to act on whatever to make it difficult for opponents.

After RHO has doubled I think the preempting action for bidding is gonna work a lot worse than when RHO passed since they are on the right track already, is this right?

[gnasher]

3♣, assuming partner promised three of them.

Edit: With a hand as weak as this, I think the right strategy is to get the opponents to a level where they're guessing, then leave them to it. 1♠ makes it easier for us to outbid them if we happen to have a spade fit, but we're not likely to have that fit, if we do it's not likely to be breaking, and with so few high cards I'd rather be trying for four tricks in hearts than for eight in spades.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2010-January-23, 04:08

[pooltuna]

gnasher, on Jan 23 2010, 05:03 AM, said:

3♣, assuming partner promised three of them.

Edit: With a hand as weak as this, I think the right strategy is to get the opponents to a level where they're guessing, then leave them to it. 1♠ makes it easier for us to outbid them if we happen to have a spade fit, but we're not likely to have that fit, if we do it's not likely to be breaking, and with so few high cards I'd rather be trying for four tricks in hearts than for eight in spades.

Make them guess, I agree. Might even stagger into a 7 card ♠ fit which should make defense easier

[dicklont]

1♥

[Jlall]

gnasher, on Jan 23 2010, 05:03 AM, said:

3♣, assuming partner promised three of them.

Edit: With a hand as weak as this, I think the right strategy is to get the opponents to a level where they're guessing, then leave them to it. 1♠ makes it easier for us to outbid them if we happen to have a spade fit, but we're not likely to have that fit, if we do it's not likely to be breaking, and with so few high cards I'd rather be trying for four tricks in hearts than for eight in spades.

Yes I thought 3C was normal, and 1S was weird. I like 1S because if partner has 18-19 bal with 4 spades I'm happy to play game, and if partner has 4 spades in general we will often have a good save over them in spades. Points shmoints?

I'm not looking to play a 5-3 fit, and it should be relatively easy to avoid.

Also, obviously 3C should make life tougher for them than 1S, but I think that bidding a new suit and not immediately announcing a weak hand and a club fit can cause different problems for the opponents, even if they're good. Still, taking away a whole extra level of the bidding is obviously better for destructive purposes.

I really don't understand pass..

[Jlall]

Fluffy, on Jan 23 2010, 04:21 AM, said:

pass.

Curios with people like justin who like to act on whatever to make it difficult for opponents.

After RHO has doubled I think the preempting action for bidding is gonna work a lot worse than when RHO passed since they are on the right track already, is this right?

I'm bidding because I think we might have a game or save in spades if we have a 5-4 fit there. If partner starts going crazy, that's fine with me, I have a good hand for spades. If he goes crazy reversing or something, I have 5 trumps and a stiff in support of his first suit, and I am not ashamed of my hand at all (since he also will have 5 clubs). If he has 18-19 balanced I guess he will bid 2N and we cannot get out in 3C anymore, but in that case the opponents have more than half the deck plus a fit so I'm not really worried.

If my goal was simply to mess with the opponents I would choose 3C over 1S.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I would go with a direct raise of p suit, if we have 2S as a
fit jump av., that may not be the worst idea, otherwise I
would go with my weakest clubs raise - 2C.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

Pass. Or a weak club raise if available. If I am going to make a joke it would be 1NT.

[aguahombre]

helene_t, on Jan 23 2010, 08:16 AM, said:

Pass. Or a weak club raise if available. If I am going to make a joke it would be 1NT.

yeh, pass or 3C (enough of a joke for me). But the Justinification of responding 1S is certainly compelling --right up to the point where partner rebids 2NT, and even if we survive, there is an erosion of trust.

[Fluffy]

Jlall, on Jan 23 2010, 02:45 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 23 2010, 04:21 AM, said:

pass.

Curios with people like justin who like to act on whatever to make it difficult for opponents.

After RHO has doubled I think the preempting action for bidding is gonna work a lot worse than when RHO passed since they are on the right track already, is this right?

I'm bidding because I think we might have a game or save in spades if we have a 5-4 fit there. If partner starts going crazy, that's fine with me, I have a good hand for spades. If he goes crazy reversing or something, I have 5 trumps and a stiff in support of his first suit, and I am not ashamed of my hand at all (since he also will have 5 clubs). If he has 18-19 balanced I guess he will bid 2N and we cannot get out in 3C anymore, but in that case the opponents have more than half the deck plus a fit so I'm not really worried.

If my goal was simply to mess with the opponents I would choose 3C over 1S.

ok thx.

my question was more general, if you think acting is better when RHO passes than when he doubles.

[the hog]

aguahombre, on Jan 23 2010, 11:49 PM, said:

helene_t, on Jan 23 2010, 08:16 AM, said:

Pass. Or a weak club raise if available. If I am going to make a joke it would be 1NT.

yeh, pass or 3C (enough of a joke for me). But the Justinification of responding 1S is certainly compelling --right up to the point where partner rebids 2NT, and even if we survive, there is an erosion of trust.

I agree with this. Most partners don't like playing with an "operator". The other problem is, of course, that on this hand it is FAR more likely that the opps have a contract. If partner is on lead he will not thank you if he leads from Kx of Spades.

[Jlall]

lol you're aware we have 0 HCP right? If partner leads the SK to let them make some contract when some other lead would have beaten it, don't you think maybe partner made a stupid lead? If he is looking at sure tricks in his hand/all the high cards, he is allowed to use his brain. A 1S bid does not show high spades, or ask for a spade lead, or demand partner to do something idiotic. I have full faith in partner that if we can beat their contract on defense when I have zero tricks, he won't be banging out Kx.

As far as partner being upset and their being an erosion of trust, I think the only way to erode trust is to do something that you think is the wrong bridge action, in the name of "keeping partner happy." Hopefully partner is a rational human being who always wants you to do what you feel is best. If I view 1S as the bid that will give us the best result in the long term, and don't make it because I'm scared partner might cry, then that is an erosion of trust. Frankly I do not want to play with someone who is so childish that they get upset because I bid a 5 card spade suit on a potential double fit hand when that is our most likely game, and a likely save spot.

I don't see why 1S is an operation, and 3C is not. 3C is a bid that is designed to get in their way, at the cost of sometimes missing our own spade fit. In my mind, 3C with a 5 card major is an operation, I don't see why bidding 1S is. Stop counting points so much. The biggest operation that I can see is passing with FIVE card support for partner and 5-5 though. Even if you want to count beans and wait for your 6 points to bid 1S (lol), how can you justify not preempting in clubs with 5 card support and a stiff? Passing with such a great hand for clubs seems like the biggest operation of all.

I would not want to play with someone who passed, but not because I think they are operating, just because I think they lack bridge judgement. But please start giving partner more credit than assuming he will always make a disastrous lead of Kx when you bid a suit, or that he will get his panties in a bunch if you make what you think is a good bridge action. The only valid reason for partner to not want to play with you for bidding something is if he thinks you are a poor bridge player for doing so.

[Jlall]

Fluffy, on Jan 23 2010, 10:08 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jan 23 2010, 02:45 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 23 2010, 04:21 AM, said:

pass.

Curios with people like justin who like to act on whatever to make it difficult for opponents.

After RHO has doubled I think the preempting action for bidding is gonna work a lot worse than when RHO passed since they are on the right track already, is this right?

I'm bidding because I think we might have a game or save in spades if we have a 5-4 fit there. If partner starts going crazy, that's fine with me, I have a good hand for spades. If he goes crazy reversing or something, I have 5 trumps and a stiff in support of his first suit, and I am not ashamed of my hand at all (since he also will have 5 clubs). If he has 18-19 balanced I guess he will bid 2N and we cannot get out in 3C anymore, but in that case the opponents have more than half the deck plus a fit so I'm not really worried.

If my goal was simply to mess with the opponents I would choose 3C over 1S.

ok thx.

my question was more general, if you think acting is better when RHO passes than when he doubles.

When RHO passes it is better because we are much more likely to have a 5-4 spade fit/spade game, and if we are stealing it's easier to do so when RHO has passed, possibly freezing them, but with only 3 red cards and 0 HCP a successful steal is quite unlikely so that's not much of a factor.

[kenrexford]

1♠ if I'm feeling constructive.

1NT if I'm feeling destructive.

[rogerclee]

kenrexford, on Jan 24 2010, 05:36 AM, said:

1NT if I'm feeling destructive.

Seems to me that redouble is better than 1N, if this is your goal.

[kenrexford]

rogerclee, on Jan 24 2010, 12:26 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Jan 24 2010, 05:36 AM, said:

1NT if I'm feeling destructive.

Seems to me that redouble is better than 1N, if this is your goal.

Takes up less space, and too obvious. Sometimes a delicate little lie works better.

Reminds me of the longest tank I ever saw. In 2002, I was playing in Montreal and was dealt a similar hand, with five spades and diamonds secondary, weak, after a 1♦ opening from partner (always unbalanced) and a takeout double. Assured that partner's likely stiff was spades (or that I could recover of not), I opted 1NT. The next calls left my RHO at some point (next round, or maybe after one run around) tanking in a panic after what appeared to be an impossible auction (of course). Seven minutes in, I called for the TD to note the slight hesitation. Four minutes after that, RHO bid 3♣ and went for -300 instead of several great making options.

Similar principle, against young Kranyak. After a heart overcall by partner, I opted a 1NT response with 5-card support for hearts. The opponents could not unwind it any better than doubling us in 2♥, which made a few overtricks.

One more. Against Lair's team years ago, I responded to 1♥-(1♠)-? with 1NT when holding no spade stopper but 3-card heart support. The auction that followed was identical to the auction at the other table, except at the end. When our teammates heard an eventual 4♥, they bid 4♠. At our table, we played 4♥.

So, IMO, a better psychic is more subtle. Almost plausible as an option.

[PFormaini]

kfay, on Jan 23 2010, 02:21 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

1♣-(Dbl)-?

---

PASS.

Why bid 1♠ and possibly prevent the OPPONENTS from playing in their 4-4 or 4-3 fit?

ANd why encourage partner to think sacrifice with a 3♣ bid when you risk going for more than the value of any opposing game - assuming they have one and can find it?