[Hanoi5]

When Key-card came into vogue it started as 03-14. After a while someone said 14-03 was better. Some better pairs used 14-30 except when clubs were the trump suit, which kept the 03-14 response. Then someone came up with Kick-back, and well that doesn't matter.

The thing is that I thought 14-03 was standard at the moment but I've been told that a lot, almost all, players in BBO use the old version, why's that?

[Fluffy]

most played easier to remember.

The club thing surprises me, I played first 30-14, then switched to 30-14 but 14-30 if clubs are trumps, and then to general 14-30

[Siegmund]

I wouldn't be surprised if 1430 is slightly the more popular of the two. The technical differences are small.

But mostly, if people play 1430, they say "I play 1430," NOT "I play RKC." If you say "RKC" you are saying you want to play 0314. Two names for two agreements. I think you may be seeing a selection bias caused by inquiring about RKC.

[mike777]

I play kickback with 03---14....it seems to work fine....

[jjbrr]

there is no good answer to your question.

im skeptical that "almost all" randoms prefer 0314.

[inquiry]

If you really want to get confused, consider Kantar Roman Key Card Blackwood, where he recommends using both 03/14 and 14/03 (depends upon the auctoin and which player ask),

Most of are willing to play either way, it would just be good to know what partner plays. If I don't know, I always hope I have two keycards...

[aguahombre]

On another string, many people believed that the higher frequency of 1 key vs. zero keys when being asked made them like 1430 because the answer kept them lower for further explorations --like the follow-up queen ask --particularly when hearts are trump.

What I prefer is not relevent. Just agree with pard. And agree on whether the king ask is the same or not.

[Mbodell]

aguahombre, on Jan 8 2010, 10:25 PM, said:

On another string, many people believed that the higher frequency of 1 key vs. zero keys when being asked made them like 1430 because the answer kept them lower for further explorations --like the follow-up queen ask --particularly when hearts are trump.

What I prefer is not relevent. Just agree with pard. And agree on whether the king ask is the same or not.

Yeah, the King ask (and void showing answers) are two things to ask about after you figure out if it is 1430 or 3014.

In the King ask I prefer specific Kings (and that works well with the Q ask too), but if you decide the answer is number of Kings make sure to agree on if the K of trump counts or not (I don't think it should, but some people play it does).

[fromageGB]

mike777, on Jan 9 2010, 02:25 AM, said:

I play kickback with 03---14....it seems to work fine....

But better still to play ace-showing steps of 1, 2, 3, 0 !
(OK, you have to have 3 being 3 with the trump Queen, so 3 without the Queen is lumped in with the first step, but the Queen ask handles that.)

I have been given a hand, when discussing RKCB, where the bidding was distributional but logical, and you didn't know whether a response was 0 or 3. Better not to merge them.

NB edited 13:55 10th Jan - typo - original post referred to "3 with the trump KING"

[ggwhiz]

Reversing the meaning of the responses is just what bridge players do, often for little or no good reason. The 0-3 1-4, Bergen, Drury, you name it.

After much discussion one of our pairs proudly announced they were playing reverse Smolen until someone told them that would be ummm Standard American.

Added: Indeed I should have said "sometimes" instead of "often" since I play most of the above reversed and in comfort.

[aguahombre]

ggwhiz, on Jan 9 2010, 08:50 AM, said:

Reversing the meaning of the responses is just what bridge players do, often for little or no good reason. The 0-3 1-4, Bergen, Drury, you name it.

After much discussion one of our pairs proudly announced they were playing reverse Smolen until someone told them that would be ummm Standard American.

That is funny about Reverse Smolen. And it does seem like the first part is true. However, they usually have reasons --like space conservation, whether others agree with the change or not.

[Old York]

I normally have 1430 on my profile, but immediately change it to match my partner's profile.
This caused a problem on one hand. A bug crept in and my partner only saw 1430, while both opponents saw the new 0314

Needless to say, it all ended in disaster

Tony >reaches for Prozac<

[mike777]

fromageGB, on Jan 9 2010, 08:23 AM, said:

mike777, on Jan 9 2010, 02:25 AM, said:

I play kickback with 03---14....it seems to work fine....

But better still to play ace-showing steps of 1, 2, 3, 0 !
(OK, you have to have 3 being 3 with the trump King, so 3 without the King is lumped in with the first step, but the Queen ask handles that.)

I have been given a hand, when discussing RKCB, where the bidding was distributional but logical, and you didn't know whether a response was 0 or 3. Better not to merge them.

This sounds pretty bad......you cannot show 2 with q or without at a low level.

You gain basically nothing....I mean 03 has never been a problem.

[aguahombre]

If, as the auction has developed, you cannot tell whether zero or 3, you are already too high if it is zero anyway. Not a problem. No blackwood with void, please --unless you are the one who is showing the void and pard won't count that ace.

[Cyberyeti]

I play 03 14, but as we always play the suit above the trump suit as RKCB, we have plenty of space

[FrancesHinden]

Hanoi5, on Jan 9 2010, 12:32 AM, said:

The thing is that I thought 14-03 was standard at the moment but I've been told that a lot, almost all, players in BBO use the old version, why's that?

I think it's the person who told you that 14-03 was "standard at the moment" who was wrong. I would say that the world of people who play one or the other is split roughly into two, and neither is "standard".

Playing in the UK, if I hadn't discussed it beforehand I would always assume 03-14; that (I think) is the 'normal' way round and if you want to play it the other way round you need to agree it beforehand.

I play it one way with one partner and the other way with another partner. While I believe there is a technical difference, I'm yet to see the difference matter in practice.

[jmcw]

1430 is far more popular in my neck of the woods TORONTO. Showing Kings when the response is 2 with

[fromageGB]

mike777, on Jan 10 2010, 01:33 AM, said:

fromageGB, on Jan 9 2010, 08:23 AM, said:

mike777, on Jan 9 2010, 02:25 AM, said:

I play kickback with 03---14....it seems to work fine....

But better still to play ace-showing steps of 1, 2, 3, 0 !
(OK, you have to have 3 being 3 with the trump Queen, so 3 without the Queen is lumped in with the first step, but the Queen ask handles that.)

I have been given a hand, when discussing RKCB, where the bidding was distributional but logical, and you didn't know whether a response was 0 or 3. Better not to merge them.

This sounds pretty bad......you cannot show 2 with q or without at a low level.

You gain basically nothing....I mean 03 has never been a problem.

Sorry, Mike, I think you misunderstood the situation. Eg with diamonds as the trump suit :
4♥ = ace ask
4NT (ie 2 steps) = 2 aces
5♣ = queen ask
... 5♦ = no I haven't
... 5♠ etc = yes I have, and this is my cheapest king (denies king of hearts).

Of course the last bid there depends on your king responses, but the principle is that if asker was asking for the queen of trumps, he must have been going to ask for kings if you had it, because otherwise he would have just signed off in 5♦ and not asked for the queen.

You'll note my steps of 1, 2, 3, 0 also have no 4 : that's because asker guarantees one of the 5 aces himself (he should be minimum of an ace and the trump queen), and if teller has 4 aces he bypasses the ace responses and bids directly with the cheapest king. So :
4♥ = ace ask
5♠ = have 4 aces and this is my cheapest king.


NB edited 13:55 GMT 10th Jan - typo - original post referred to "3 with the trump KING"

[blackshoe]

I'm not sure what to call that, Fromage, but it doesn't look like any form of Roman Keycard Blackwood to me.

[fromageGB]

blackshoe, on Jan 10 2010, 02:15 PM, said:

I'm not sure what to call that, Fromage, but it doesn't look like any form of Roman Keycard Blackwood to me.

No, it was a comment on a kickback treatment. Apologies for drifting off the topic of the OP itself.

The point is that if you are restricted to have 4NT as essentially the only ace asking bid, then RKCB makes good sense. But if a bid at the 4 level is an ace ask with trumps being the suit below, ie you are playing kickback, then RKCB ace responses are unnecessary, inefficient, and best not used.