[jillybean]

NV vs V , partner opens 1♠ in 4th position

you hold
K9, KQ65, 853, QT76

pass to you, your bid.

[mike777]

jillybean, on Jan 4 2010, 09:05 PM, said:

NV vs V , partner opens 1♠ in 4th position

you hold
K9, KQ65, 853, QT76

pass to you, your bid.

1nt SF no problem yet.

If pard rebids 2c that will be the start of BART for me.

If pard rebids 2d then 2s.

[gwnn]

1NT is so white that it's not even a lie!

[mikeh]

I don't understand the problem, and when jb posts, I usually do 'get it'. This looks like a clear 1N, no matter what methods one plays. I admit that I do like to play it as semi-forcing, but I don't care if it is non-forcing.

BTW, this is yet another reason to open 1N with 5332 hands in range...with a 15 count 5332 opener is stuck over a nf 1N, and even over a semi-forcing 1N.

So maybe I do get the problem...we may miss game if partner passes, as he will with a flat 14. Oh well...everyone misses notrump games when the mesh misfits methods. Can't bid them all (at least, and not make enough of them to warrant it)

[Winstonm]

There is no reason to upgrade, downgrade, or grade on the curve, so 1NT it is. (Even in this day and age of uber-light openings and responses, it is still not illegal, immoral, or ill-advised to hold the top of your range.)

[jillybean]

I see where I am coming unstuck, can someone please explain semi forcing 1nt response by a passed hand. I can find a lot about semi forcing 1nt by a non passed hand but little by a passed hand. I have a horrible habit of raising partner with 2 card support when I dont have enough for 2x but think my hand is too good for 1nt. My partners would be very happy if I'd stop doing this.


semi forcing 1nt I think opener is allowed to pass holding a balanced minimum otherwise will bid their second suit. Thus responder, with no tolerance for openers 2 suits could be forced to the 3level with 6-10(11) points?

[Mbodell]

First of all, remember that (barring Drury meanings) you are free to make a 2/1 as a passed hand without the values you need if you weren't a passed hand. Partner is allowed to pass your natural bids. So a 2/1 is more like a standard 2/1 than a 2/1 2/1 once you are a passed hand.

A semi-forcing 1nt means partner can pass the 1nt. Depending on agreement, this could be only on balanced minimums, or maybe on any sub-minimums (more so over 3rd seat openings than 4th - probably).

Yes, partner is supposed to bid their 2nd suit. If you have long clubs to garbage and they bid ♠ and ♥ you either have to suck it up and take a preference or bid at the 3 level (either immediately if you play weak jumps by passed hands, or after sf 1nt), yes. But if you have a flattish hand this isn't such a big deal.

If you don't play the 1nt as semi-forcing but just play it as 6-9/10 you also have the 2nt available for you as a passed hand. It can't be jacoby 2nt as you don't have an opening hand. Therefore it should show a balanced hand with 2 card support and 10/11-12 or so. It is a rarer or riskier bid since it takes you so high, but partner should have something to open in 4th, and maybe you had a 12 count you devalued for the QJ tight of spades that now looks better.

[mike777]

jillybean, on Jan 4 2010, 10:40 PM, said:

I see where I am coming unstuck, can someone please explain semi forcing 1nt response by a passed hand. I can find a lot about semi forcing 1nt by a non passed hand but little by a passed hand. I have a horrible habit of raising partner with 2 card support when I dont have enough for 2x but think my hand is too good for 1nt.  My partners would be very happy if I'd stop doing this.


semi forcing 1nt I think opener is allowed to pass holding a balanced minimum otherwise will bid their second suit. Thus responder, with no tolerance for openers 2 suits could be forced to the 3level with 6-10(11) points?

JB I basically play system on by passed hand so...

1nt sf just the same
Bergen just the same
etc etc...

With all of that said...if you open lite in first and second and you seem to say yes...then 4th seat should be a pretty good one spade bid...so I expect 4th seat to rebid very very often.

[Siegmund]

Let me just add that, playing nonforcing notrumps in SA, I am happy responding 1NT here. If I were responding to a 1st/2nd seat opening I would make the same response but I'd be somewhat less happy that it wasn't forcing.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

see where I am coming unstuck, can someone please explain semi forcing 1nt response by a passed hand. I can find a lot about semi forcing 1nt by a non passed hand but little by a passed hand. I have a horrible habit of raising partner with 2 card support when I dont have enough for 2x but think my hand is too good for 1nt. My partners would be very happy if I'd stop doing this.

There is no such thing as a hand "not enough for 2x" but also "too good for 1nt", whether you are passed hand or not. If it's too good for 1nt, it's enough to bid 2x followed by 2nt if not playing a forcing/semi-forcing NT. If you are playing a F/SF NT, it's even clearer to bid 1nt, since the range for such a NT is 6-12-, covering your entire non-opening range, you can't have a hand "too good" for 1nt as a passed hand! The problem comes on the 2nd round, deciding whether you want to invite or not.

With a flat hand, no fit for partner's major, you basically have to decide whether you are going to invite game or not (which depends a bit on how light your partners open). If you aren't inviting, then you bid 1nt then pass/take preference/play 1nt if partner passes you. If you are inviting, then you commit yourself to bidding 2nt at some point (or raising partner's 2nd suit if appropriate), what you bid first round depends if you are playing forcing/semi-forcing NT or not, if you are playing drury or not if you are passed hand, if you are playing 2/1 GF or not if unpassed.

semi-forcing NT vs. forcing NT vs. non-forcing NT:
Non-forcing NTs are limited to a bad 10 pts or so. The others can be up to a bad 12. With the forcing/semi-forcing varieties, opener will frequently rebid a 3 cd fragment, while he won't with the non-forcing type. There is no difference in hand types between a passed -hand semi-forcing NT vs. a NPH semi-forcing NT, except for the lack of 3cd limit raises of the major, if playing drury. Same for forcing NT, except that if you play 100% forcing NT, you might choose to put a few game forcing hand types in it by unpassed hands.

No matter what you play, there are going to be hands at the margins, where you are right at the border between choosing to describe your hand as weak (1nt, pass/preference), and as game inv (rebid 2nt). If partner also has a borderline hand, and takes the "wrong" (on this hand) view in the same direction you took it, you will end up too high or too low. This is just unavoidable sometimes, and you just have to live with it. The goal is to get *most* of the hands to the right level, you can't get them *all*.

Quote

semi forcing 1nt I think opener is allowed to pass holding a balanced minimum otherwise will bid their second suit. Thus responder, with no tolerance for openers 2 suits could be forced to the 3level with 6-10(11) points?

No, not usually. First off, opener with balanced hands is going to rebid 2c at least 2/3 of the time (more, if playing a style where 5332 rebids 2c), allowing a weak responder with a 5+ cd red suit but not 2 spades/4 clubs to bid it. The worst case scenario if partner is balanced is they rebid 2d on 5332, while you have a say 1435 hand. you pass and play a 3-3 diamond contract.
With 6 clubs you can gamble 3c, which may or may not work out.

Now if opener is unbalanced, even playing non-forcing NT he will tend to bid his other suit, and if the hand is misfit, and you have an awkward shape, at least you know all the other tables are facing the same problem. You might be 1-2-5-5 and hear partner's 2h after your 1nt, if you are too weak for 2nt at this point you more or less have to pass and hope partner has 5 hearts and can scramble 8 tricks, because bidding more just rates to make things worse.

[mike777]

wtf


insane



just bid normal...nothing fancy..sigh......no need to read tenpages.


If you cannot bid a normal...standard..nothing fancy 1nt here...stop.

[jillybean]

mike777, on Jan 5 2010, 12:49 AM, said:

wtf


insane



just bid normal...nothing fancy..sigh......no need to read tenpages.


If you cannot bid a normal...standard..nothing fancy 1nt here...stop.

Stephens reply is a lot more useful than "1nt wtp?"
Stephen, thanks for taking the time to explain in such detail.

[1eyedjack]

The hand to my mind demonstrates the value of opening 1NT with a 5 card spade suit when in range (which I assume is 15-17). Those who open 1S are under pressure to raise 1N to 2N with these hands which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response. If your practice is to open these hands 1N then a 1N response on this occasion is certainly safe.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

System?

1NT, as long as it showes 6-10.

Otherwise bid 2C, planning to bid 2NT, this assumes, that you cant bid
2NT over 1S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gwnn]

P_Marlowe, on Jan 5 2010, 08:56 AM, said:

System?

1NT, as long as it showes 6-10.

Otherwise

what other agreement do you mean? 6-11 or 6-9? it's unclear for me.

[Codo]

1eyedjack, on Jan 5 2010, 05:54 PM, said:

The hand to my mind demonstrates the value of opening 1NT with a 5 card spade suit when in range (which I assume is 15-17). Those who open 1S are under pressure to raise 1N to 2N with these hands which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response. If your practice is to open these hands 1N then a 1N response on this occasion is certainly safe.

This hand proves exactly nothing. If partner with a 15-17 NT invites you via 2 NT you simply accept.

It is modern to open 1 NT with 5 card majors but for better reasons and despite the occasional losses from missing their major fit.

BTW: This is a 1NT response in any system I know.

[pooltuna]

jillybean, on Jan 4 2010, 09:05 PM, said:

NV vs V , partner opens 1♠ in 4th position

you hold
K9, KQ65, 853, QT76

pass to you, your bid.

I see no other choice than 1NT unless you are allowed to announce "I call a negative double of 2♦"

[helene_t]

If 1NT is 6-9 you probably have to bid 2♣ with this hand. I have seen some people playing 2NT as 10-11 by a passed hand, presumably 2♣ would be Drury (or maybe showing 5+ clubs, then opener can pass it with most a doubleton support). That is playable opposite a 4th seat opener, but opposite a 3rd seat opener you don't want to be in 2NT, and it's simpler to play the same methods after 3rd seat and 4th seat openings.

Anyway, maybe this is a wtp 1NT, but what with 11 points then? If the only agreement is "2/1" I would assume that 1NT is 5-11. In SAYC I would assume a balanced (10)11 count had to bid 2♣ just like an unpassed hand would.

Better to discuss it with partner. But in any case, never bid 2♠ with doubleton support. If unsure what the agreements are, it is much better to make a 1NT bid that might be one HCP too heavy, than a 2♠ bid that is certainly a misbid.

Codo said:

If partner with a 15-17 NT invites you via 2 NT you simply accept.

How strong is
1♠-1NT
2NT
?

If opener has 15-16 (17?) it would go
1♠-1NT
2m-2NT
3NT

If opener has 16-17 and responder has 8-9 it would go
1♠-1NT
2m-2♠
2NT-3NT

[1eyedjack]

Codo, on Jan 5 2010, 01:32 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jan 5 2010, 05:54 PM, said:

The hand to my mind demonstrates the value of opening 1NT with a 5 card spade suit when in range (which I assume is 15-17).  Those who open 1S are under pressure to raise 1N to 2N with these hands which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response.  If your practice is to open these hands 1N then a 1N response on this occasion is certainly safe.

This hand proves exactly nothing. If partner with a 15-17 NT invites you via 2 NT you simply accept.

What part of "which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response" did you miss?

[ArtK78]

This hand is a WTP 1NT.

If I had 11 HCP I would still bid 1NT. The only time partner passes a "semi-forcing" 1NT response is when he has opened light with a balanced hand. In that case, you do not want to be any higher than 1NT.

Perhaps a better definition of a "semi-forcing" 1NT is that 1NT is "intended as forcing." As stated above, the only time partner passes is if partner opened a balanced hand with less than a full opening bid. With any full opening bid, or any unbalanced hand, he will take another call.

Partner might pass a marginal opening bid as he will take into account that you are a passed hand. If, in partner's judgment, game is unlikely opposite less than a full opening bid, he can pass 1NT.