[helene_t]

ArtK78, on Jan 5 2010, 04:50 PM, said:

Perhaps a better definition of a "semi-forcing" 1NT is that 1NT is "intended as forcing." As stated above, the only time partner passes is if partner opened a balanced hand with less than a full opening bid. With any full opening bid, or any unbalanced hand, he will take another call.

If you play Drury I don't think this is true. Then the 1NT response does not include the 10-11 hands with 3-card support. So opener can pass with some hands that wouldn't have passed opposite a 1NT response by an unpassed hand.

[jillybean]

helene_t, on Jan 5 2010, 08:19 AM, said:

But in any case, never bid 2♠ with doubleton support. If unsure what the agreements are, it is much better to make a 1NT bid that might be one HCP too heavy, than a 2♠ bid that is certainly a misbid.

Unless I have a distributional hand with a stiff/void, then it seems to pass the test.

[hanp]

My advice: never bid 1S-2S on a doubleton.

[P_Marlowe]

gwnn, on Jan 5 2010, 06:41 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jan 5 2010, 08:56 AM, said:

System?

1NT, as long as it showes 6-10.

Otherwise

what other agreement do you mean? 6-11 or 6-9? it's unclear for me.

E.g. 6-9, or (semi-) forcing NT.

The hand is a clear cut 1NT response, as long as it fits the definition.

If 1NT is limited to 9HCP, the hand is too strong, you can of course downgrade,
but why should you?

[TylerE]

Any hand you like enough to bid 2n on vs passed 1M you should have opened in the first place

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on Jan 4 2010, 10:08 PM, said:

I don't understand the problem, and when jb posts, I usually do 'get it'. This looks like a clear 1N, no matter what methods one plays. I admit that I do like to play it as semi-forcing, but I don't care if it is non-forcing.

BTW, this is yet another reason to open 1N with 5332 hands in range...with a 15 count 5332 opener is stuck over a nf 1N, and even over a semi-forcing 1N.

So maybe I do get the problem...we may miss game if partner passes, as he will with a flat 14. Oh well...everyone misses notrump games when the mesh misfits methods. Can't bid them all (at least, and not make enough of them to warrant it)

No, what you don't get is that not everybody plays 1N as you do, 5-9 for me so routine 2♣ bid. This is not a 10 count I want to downgrade, and opening on the hands I do (playing a natural 1♣ and opening fairly light), this fits in a pretty precise box as to what my hand will be having passed.

[Winstonm]

hanp, on Jan 5 2010, 12:55 PM, said:

My advice: never bid 1S-2S on a doubleton.

Damn fine advice. Do you charge a fee?

[Codo]

1eyedjack, on Jan 6 2010, 12:30 AM, said:

Codo, on Jan 5 2010, 01:32 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jan 5 2010, 05:54 PM, said:

The hand to my mind demonstrates the value of opening 1NT with a 5 card spade suit when in range (which I assume is 15-17).  Those who open 1S are under pressure to raise 1N to 2N with these hands which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response.  If your practice is to open these hands 1N then a 1N response on this occasion is certainly safe.

This hand proves exactly nothing. If partner with a 15-17 NT invites you via 2 NT you simply accept.

What part of "which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response" did you miss?

I did not miss anything, thank you, but maybe your translating computer failed? Or what did you like to tell us with "The hand to my mind demonstrates the value of opening 1NT...."?
Please enlighten me and show me why an opener with a 5332 and 15-17 has any problem in reaching 3 NT opposite this hand after any sensible opening.

[wank]

jillybean, if this is considered too strong for 1NT in your methods, change your methods.

[1eyedjack]

Codo, on Jan 6 2010, 09:18 AM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jan 6 2010, 12:30 AM, said:

Codo, on Jan 5 2010, 01:32 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jan 5 2010, 05:54 PM, said:

The hand to my mind demonstrates the value of opening 1NT with a 5 card spade suit when in range (which I assume is 15-17).  Those who open 1S are under pressure to raise 1N to 2N with these hands which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response.  If your practice is to open these hands 1N then a 1N response on this occasion is certainly safe.

This hand proves exactly nothing. If partner with a 15-17 NT invites you via 2 NT you simply accept.

What part of "which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response" did you miss?

I did not miss anything, thank you, but maybe your translating computer failed? Or what did you like to tell us with "The hand to my mind demonstrates the value of opening 1NT...."?
Please enlighten me and show me why an opener with a 5332 and 15-17 has any problem in reaching 3 NT opposite this hand after any sensible opening.

If you regard opening 1♠ as falling within the set of "any sensible opening", then as opener you have to make a decision following a 1N response, whether or not to invite. If you assert that opener has no problem in reaching 3 NT it can only result from your decision that it is appropriate to invite game. Responder cannot accept an invitation that opener does not profer.

If you invite to game with such an opener following a 1NT response then you will have no problem reaching game on this hand. Your problem will come on the next occasion that a similar hand arises, when you again invite and responder declines the invitation having responded on a 5-6 count and you now languish in 2NT when you had an opportunity to play in 1NT (but at the risk of missing game had responder had a 10 count).

You can't have it both ways, is all I am saying. Either you "easily" find the game when responder is max (and play in a dismal 2N when responder is min), or you miss 3N when responder is max and play in a reasonable 1N when responder is min.

Well, you can in fact have it both ways: by opening 1N, having a narrower range than the 1N response to 1♠. Hence this hand demonstrates one of the merits of opening 1N. There are of course other gains and losses, such as the likelihood of finding or missing a Spade fit.

As many responders have pointed out, this is a "wtp" hand and some have wondered why jb posted it. I can only speculate, but a common reason why some intermediate players regard this as a problem hand is because they do not want to raise a 1N response to 2N on a 15 count (and rightly so in my opinion, although clearly not in yours, as you say you would find 3N), which in turn causes them concern about responding 1N on this hand and thereby missing game. That problem disappears if you open 1N rather than 1♠

Perhaps you will suggest that playing Gazzilli or something similar affords you the best of both worlds and allows for a 1♠ opener. That may well be an option but not one that I would suggest in this forum, nor is it a panacea. For one thing it still denies you the opportunity to play in 1N, which may yet be the best spot, as well as denying some optimal 2-minor contracts.

[Fluffy]

playing natural and not being a passed hand I'd be willing to upgrade and bid 2♣ over 1♠ to rebid 2NT, but you have to take it easier on partner's 3rd and 4th hand openings specially in spades. 2♣ by a passed hand is non forcing so you cannot use it.

[pooltuna]

[quote name='1eyedjack' date='Jan 6 2010, 04:51 AM'][quote name='Codo' date='Jan 6 2010, 09:18 AM'][quote name='1eyedjack' date='Jan 6 2010, 12:30 AM'] [quote name='Codo' date='Jan 5 2010, 01:32 PM'][quote name='1eyedjack' date='Jan 5 2010, 05:54 PM'] The hand to my mind demonstrates the value of opening 1NT with a 5 card spade suit when in range (which I assume is 15-17).  [snip]. [/QUOTE]
This hand proves exactly nothing. If partner with a 15-17 NT invites you via 2 NT you simply accept.
[/QUOTE]
What part of "which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response" did you miss? [/QUOTE]
[snip][/QUOTE]
Having read posts from both of you I think you both agree that opening a 15-17 1NT with a 5 card major is a better than opening 1 of the major. If that is not the case please clearly state that you open 1 of the major or that your 1NT opening cannot have a 5 card major. I am of the opinion that the 1NT opening call generally makes life much easier for your partner when he holds the average 9,10,11 hcp hand even if I have a 5 card major.

[ArtK78]

TylerE, on Jan 5 2010, 06:19 PM, said:

Any hand you like enough to bid 2n on vs passed 1M you should have opened in the first place

Right.

A natural 2NT response as a passed hand to a one of a suit opening bid is a crime against bridge. It is a sure way to turn a plus score into a minus score.

[Lobowolf]

Codo, on Jan 6 2010, 03:18 AM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jan 6 2010, 12:30 AM, said:

Codo, on Jan 5 2010, 01:32 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jan 5 2010, 05:54 PM, said:

The hand to my mind demonstrates the value of opening 1NT with a 5 card spade suit when in range (which I assume is 15-17).  Those who open 1S are under pressure to raise 1N to 2N with these hands which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response.  If your practice is to open these hands 1N then a 1N response on this occasion is certainly safe.

This hand proves exactly nothing. If partner with a 15-17 NT invites you via 2 NT you simply accept.

What part of "which contract would be at risk opposite a minimum end of the wide range 1N response" did you miss?

I did not miss anything, thank you, but maybe your translating computer failed? Or what did you like to tell us with "The hand to my mind demonstrates the value of opening 1NT...."?
Please enlighten me and show me why an opener with a 5332 and 15-17 has any problem in reaching 3 NT opposite this hand after any sensible opening.

The problem isn't reaching 3NT when you're 16 opposite 10. The problem is avoiding playing 2NT when you're 15 opposite 6.

[Codo]

Lobowolf, on Jan 7 2010, 12:49 AM, said:

The problem isn't reaching 3NT when you're 16 opposite 10. The problem is avoiding playing 2NT when you're 15 opposite 6.

reading is an undervalued ability....