[rogerclee]

IMPs, w/w

AKxxx ATxx Qx Jx

1S 2D 3C P
?

[jdonn]

Qx isn't a stopper, but ATxx is a suit!

[Echognome]

jdonn, on Jan 4 2010, 01:31 PM, said:

Qx isn't a stopper, but ATxx is a suit!

Yeah, but partner didn't make a negative double, which he would do with 4♥ and 5♣, so it's not like we're headed towards a heart contract. The question, I guess is whether we should bid 3♦, then 3NT, 3♥ then 3NT, bid 3NT directly, or do something else clever.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Jan 4 2010, 04:31 PM, said:

Qx isn't a stopper, but ATxx is a suit!

Yes

Surely no good player, not using NFBs, denies 4+ hearts by bidding 3♣? At least, not in NA as far as I know...(I often write this kind of statement and then quickly learn I was mistaken )

Of course, we are going to feel very badly if 3N from our side is best....give partner Kxx or Ax(x) in diamonds, and we have wrongsided the contract.

However, maybe he'll be able to bid a slow 3♠ and we can bid a slow 3N

[jdonn]

Echognome, on Jan 4 2010, 04:33 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 4 2010, 01:31 PM, said:

Qx isn't a stopper, but ATxx is a suit!

Yeah, but partner didn't make a negative double, which he would do with 4♥ and 5♣, so it's not like we're headed towards a heart contract. The question, I guess is whether we should bid 3♦, then 3NT, 3♥ then 3NT, bid 3NT directly, or do something else clever.

Why does he have to double first on every hand with longer clubs?

[mikeh]

Echognome, on Jan 4 2010, 04:33 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 4 2010, 01:31 PM, said:

Qx isn't a stopper, but ATxx is a suit!

Yeah, but partner didn't make a negative double, which he would do with 4♥ and 5♣, so it's not like we're headed towards a heart contract. The question, I guess is whether we should bid 3♦, then 3NT, 3♥ then 3NT, bid 3NT directly, or do something else clever.

You'd have N negative double, and over 3♠, do what? How are you plausibly finding the club slam now? I'm not saying that it's easy even after 3♣ but it must be extraordinarily difficult after a negative double....surely bidding 4♣ over 3♠ doesn't show this hand? maybe I'm out to lunch.

---

[kenrexford]

Here's one thing. Whereas I would bid 2♣ with a heart suit quite often, I'm not sure I care as Opener whether partner will or will not have four hearts. I do. I hope I can bid hearts here when I have hearts.

[655321]

3♥.

But with AKxxx Qx Jx ATxx after 1S 2H 3D P I would bid 3NT.

If partner can bid 3♠ now I will bid 3NT. If partner is 1336 or similar, and we belong in 3NT from our side we lose.

[Echognome]

Sure, if partner has slam ambitions, he may have 4 hearts, but I don't envision he will bypass a double, if he has only game or invitational ambitions.

By the way, I'm not saying that it's not right to show your heart suit, just trying to think to the next step. Let's say partner has:

x Kxx Axx KQT9xx

How are you going to get to 3NT from the right side after you have bid 3♥?

So, I overbid when I said he won't have 4♥, but I didn't mean to detract from the original problem of what the best call is.

[Winstonm]

jdonn, on Jan 4 2010, 04:31 PM, said:

Qx isn't a stopper, but ATxx is a suit!

No, silly, a suit is made from cloth. No, to get to the bottom of this question requires science. What else stops diamonds?

A duck.
Precisely. And why does a duck stop diamonds?
Because it's made of wood?
Exactly. Therefore...
We weigh the Qx, and if it weighs the same as a duck....then it's made of wood...and....and...
And therefore it must be....
A witch! Burn her!

(Some people simply have no card sense.)

[1eyedjack]

Opener may bid 3♦?
Responder may then yet bid a major on the way to 3N, and 3N. If he bids 3♠, opener can then bid 3N, which would I think show a half stop in ♦ while also right-siding it.

[eyhung]

Echognome, on Jan 4 2010, 06:14 PM, said:

Let's say partner has:

x Kxx Axx KQT9xx

How are you going to get to 3NT from the right side after you have bid 3♥?

Well, let's say partner has :

xx KQxx xx AKTxx

or

Q Kxx xxx AKQxxx

How are you going to get out of 3NT once you bid 3NT?

Point being: there are upsides and downsides to both bids. 3NT is not ridiculous. But 3♥ is more flexible: you can still reach 3NT if it is right (after 3♠) but you're unlikely to reach hearts or clubs after 3NT. Bashing into a potential no-play game at IMPs while a couple of good alternatives are still possible doesn't strike me as the percentage action.

[whereagles]

If I'm sure pard won't take 3♥ as 5 cards, I'd bid that (I prefer having pard bid NT with Axx or Kxx of diamonds).

If there's a chance he'll take 3♥ as 5 cards, I'd just bid a 3♦ cue or a bluffing 3NT if I feel lucky.

[eyhung]

whereagles, on Jan 5 2010, 09:36 AM, said:

If I'm sure pard won't take 3♥ as 5 cards, I'd bid that (I prefer having pard bid NT with Axx or Kxx of diamonds).

If there's a chance he'll take 3♥ as 5 cards, I'd just bid a 3♦ cue or a bluffing 3NT if I feel lucky.

If you prefer that partner declares NT with Axx or Kxx of diamonds, you'll be likely playing with partners who might take an undiscussed 3♥ as promising 5 cards.

Even though I am not a 3NT bidder, the biggest benefit of an immediate 3NT is because you are hoping that partner has Axx or Kxx of diamonds. Think hard about both suit combinations, and what happens if the diamond length and strength is on lead. Then consider what happens if the other hand is on lead. You'll find that the Qx wants to be declarer. It's not 100% like AQ, but it's a strong percentage play -- and even if the opening leader has something like JT98xx of diamonds and partner has Axx, you still get two tricks eventually (at the cost of a tempo). It is this situation which has induced people to gamble 3NT; the gains are excellent when partner has this holding. My argument is that you don't need to commit this early for a potential win when you have a flexible call that keeps all possible games open and still leads to 3NT sometimes when it is right.

In a way, this situation is similar to defending after leading a top honor to look at the dummy. Say you win, and you see that you hold Kxx in a suit where dummy holds xxx. You should be thinking about whether you should switch to that suit. The upside is if partner has a touching honor (A or Q), you are establishing or cashing tricks. The downside is that declarer has both touching honors and you blow a trick. Sometimes, you need to commit right away because dummy has a long strong side suit that is going to be used for discards -- in that case if declarer has both touching honors, the trick is likely going away anyway. But if dummy is flat and declarer has not shown a source of tricks in the bidding, there is often no need to commit -- the suit isn't going anywhere, and you can attack the suit later if necessary.

Similarly, here there are definite benefits to bidding 3♥ or 3NT. But 3NT frequently forecloses the other game contracts of 4♥ and 5♣, while 3♥ frequently does not, so it is the better call.

In summary, during the bidding and the play, you should always be asking yourself:

1) What is going on? [What are the possible good outcomes remaining?]
2) What do I need to do? [What is my plan to realize each possible good outcome? Do some of these plans foreclose alternative good outcomes?]
3) Do I need to do it NOW?

[EDIT: I believe this process was originally mentioned by Grant Baze in one of his articles.]

If you can apply these three steps consistently and accurately, I think you will find your scores improving.

[Jlall]

I think a bigger reason to bid 3N than wanting to be there opposite Ax(x) or Kxx is that you might well have no legitimate play for any game, and in that case you want to play 3N. LHO might lead a low diamond from the AK, or he might lead a different suit (say you have AKJxxx and out, it is probably right to lead something else in case partner has a stiff diamond). Depending on the level of your opponents, he might lead a high diamond and then shift thinking you had Qxx for your bid. This happens a ton against weaker opponents, because they are always giving attitude at trick 1. This happens sometimes against good opponents too.

And of course partner might have Jxx of diamonds and the only way to get to 3N is for someone to bid it. I think 3N is certainly a reasonable bid with this hand.