[gnasher]

1♣   dbl  pass 1♠
pass pass 2♣   dbl

Until today I thought there was only one sensible way to play this double. What does it mean?

[aguahombre]

Old fashioned informative? Informing partner that the opps have found their 4-3 fit and I don't think they can make it.

[gwnn]

should be penalties I think... we found our 'fit'... maybe

xxxx
x
xxx
KJTxx

[helene_t]

In this particular situation, advancer can just bid a red suit so he must have at least three clubs for this double. If opps' suit had not been clubs, I suppose t/o would make more sense.

[jdonn]

I think it's competitive and value showing. Imagine a hand like Axxx xxx Kxx xxx. You don't want to insist on spades, but partner can very easily have a 5 card suit that you want to compete in. Also maybe he has one of those 3433 wonders that I like to double on and he can pass.

[aguahombre]

Yep, it depends on whether the original double was a takeout double.

[Fluffy]

I think penalty makes no sense, they found a fit, and have equal or greater strenght being at the 2 level. That leaves some sort of take out.

[Jlall]

4333 with a good hand

[Echognome]

Jlall, on Jan 4 2010, 02:47 PM, said:

4333 with a good hand

I know you mean relative to his previous bidding, but how good a hand can he have given his 1♠ call last round? I would assume 1♠ is non-forcing, so he is limited. If he had a 4333 hand with club values, might he have chosen 1NT instead of 1♠ (I'm imagining something like xxxx Kxx xxx KQx). So would this be a 4333 with no club wastage and top of range for 1♠? Something like KJxx Kxx Qxx xxx?

[jdonn]

Gnome, see jdonn post!

[P_Marlowe]

Penalty.

If I have a 2nd suit (hearts or diamonds), I can bid this suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: You also can call the double optional.

[bluecalm]

The problem is with hands :
ATxx
KJx
Txx
9xx

Do you really want to pass ? I don't think you are happy with 2♠ on earlier round either.

ATxx
Qxx
Qxxx
9x

Not happy 2D bid I believe... Would be better to double (if t/o).
We will land in superior 2♦/2♥ quite often after dbl.

[aguahombre]

ur second one is an easy 2d, unless opposite one of josh's doubles, because they might still have only a 7 card fit

[Codo]

penalty
I see no sense in showing partner exactly a 4333 7 count, if 2 club is passed to partner he will interfere that I have such a hand anyway.

[shevek]

Takeout, whenever they bid & raise. Yes, can make a case for this to be one of the exceptions but better for tempo & harmony to keep it simple.
Say their fit is diamonds. Then you might have 4-3-2-4 and like to double for tko. Even more so if their fit is hearts, etc.
It's a mistake to think you can both work these out at the time.

[helene_t]

Codo, on Jan 5 2010, 09:19 AM, said:

penalty
I see no sense in showing partner exactly a 4333 7 count, if 2 club is passed to partner he will interfere that I have such a hand anyway.

I think the modern trend is that with 4333 you can have as much as 9 points, maybe even 10.

OTOH if you have a hand suited for a penalty double you don't want to pass and have p bid 2♦.

I dunno.

[pooltuna]

Codo, on Jan 5 2010, 03:19 AM, said:

penalty
I see no sense in showing partner exactly a 4333 7 count, if 2 club is passed to partner he will interfere that I have such a hand anyway.

I roll with Roland on this one

[aguahombre]

pooltuna, on Jan 5 2010, 08:11 AM, said:

Codo, on Jan 5 2010, 03:19 AM, said:

penalty
I see no sense in showing partner exactly a 4333 7 count, if 2 club is passed to partner he will interfere that I have such a hand anyway.

I roll with Roland on this one

And did you two Pool your thoughts?

[pooltuna]

aguahombre, on Jan 5 2010, 11:42 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Jan 5 2010, 08:11 AM, said:

Codo, on Jan 5 2010, 03:19 AM, said:

penalty
I see no sense in showing partner exactly a 4333 7 count, if 2 club is passed to partner he will interfere that I have such a hand anyway.

I roll with Roland on this one

And did you two Pool your thoughts?

I was just in Roland's school

[gnasher]

gnasher, on Jan 4 2010, 07:43 PM, said:

Until today I thought there was only one sensible way to play this double.

The meaning I had in mind was what Josh, Justin and others suggested: values without anything sensible to bid, so 4333 in this sequence. If it had been
1♦   dbl  pass 1♠
pass pass 2♦   dbl
the double would also have had to cover 4xx4 shapes.

I was surprised to see one of England's best players double here with a 4=4=4=1 7-count (on which I would have bid 2♥). Another of England's best players left it in with a 3=4=3=3 13-count containing ♣Qxx, so presumably he was expecting either balanced values or pure penalties.

Then Frances told me that she thinks it's for penalties, so I thought I'd better find out how the rest of the world plays it. I'm not sure that I'm any the wiser.