[straube]

Anyone like the idea of devoting a jump reverse to the 18-19 balanced raise?

I've always thought it odd that after 1C-1S, we jump rebid 2N without a fit but insist on game with what could be an 8-card (only) fit.

Such a sequence as 1C-1S, 3D to show a mini-splinter is useful, but it would also be useful to show the 18-19 balanced hand with four trump. It would allow responder to bid light without being buried. It would also allow for cue-bidding and for 3N as RKC or serious 3N.

[pooltuna]

straube, on Jan 1 2010, 06:11 PM, said:

Anyone like the idea of devoting a jump reverse to the 18-19 balanced raise?

I've always thought it odd that after 1C-1S, we jump rebid 2N without a fit but insist on game with what could be an 8-card (only) fit.

Such a sequence as 1C-1S, 3D to show a mini-splinter is useful, but it would also be useful to show the 18-19 balanced hand with four trump.  It would allow responder to bid light without being buried.  It would also allow for cue-bidding and for 3N as RKC or serious 3N.

see related post. When you screw around with a bid in a system you need to check the effects on the rest of the system.

[straube]

pooltuna, on Jan 1 2010, 10:32 PM, said:

straube, on Jan 1 2010, 06:11 PM, said:

Anyone like the idea of devoting a jump reverse to the 18-19 balanced raise?

I've always thought it odd that after 1C-1S, we jump rebid 2N without a fit but insist on game with what could be an 8-card (only) fit.

Such a sequence as 1C-1S, 3D to show a mini-splinter is useful, but it would also be useful to show the 18-19 balanced hand with four trump.  It would allow responder to bid light without being buried.  It would also allow for cue-bidding and for 3N as RKC or serious 3N.

see related post. When you screw around with a bid in a system you need to check the effects on the rest of the system.

Well, I would use an asking bid after 1m-1M, 3M to find out just what sort of raise partner had (i.e. shortness). I have to have an asking bid anyway for such auctions as 1D-1H, 3H (i.e. no jump reverse available) so it should already be in my arsenal.

[aguahombre]

Pool referred you to a previous string which should answer the question you asked. If it really wasn't a question, you can use whatever your partner will agree to.

[straube]

aguahombre, on Jan 2 2010, 12:10 AM, said:

Pool referred you to a previous string which should answer the question you asked.

The question I asked was whether anyone thought it was a good idea to use a jump reverse for the 18-19 point balanced hand. I didn't see this specific use for jump reverses discussed in the other thread.

aguahombre, on Jan 2 2010, 12:10 AM, said:

If it really wasn't a question, you can use whatever your partner will agree to

No, it was a question. I liked my idea or I wouldn't have proposed it, but it has an obvious trade off and I wondered whether others would agree or not. So far no one seems to like it, so maybe it's not a good change.

[jdonn]

It's not an awful idea but the memory load will be worse than you think.
- What will 1♣ 1♠ 3♠ now show? And what will *whatever bid used to show that hand* now show? etc etc
- What is the difference between 1♣ 1♠ 3♦ and 1♣ 1♠ 3♥?
- Will you remember all the bids revert back to their prior meaning on 1♦ 1♥?

There are also issues besides memory.
- Are you willing to lose the mini splinter altogether, or whatever you were using those bids for?
- Do you gain much? I mean what is the gain, specifically a 3♥ bid after 1♣ 1♠ 3♦? On any other auction you gain no room at all anyway. No one is stopping you from using 1♣ 1♠ 3♠ 3NT as rkc or whatever else you want, if you so choose.

I mean your idea may have some slight academic interest for the sickos among us. But the improvement to your system and to your game will be somewhere from slight to nonexistent (to negative!), there is just so much more to worry about first.

[gwnn]

this was part of the original Romanian junior team system. along with stuff like

1H-1S
3D-3H/S=non forcing

2N-3N=5/4 in the majors

and a few other gems that I blocked out mentally. of course this is unfair from me (poisoning the well?), all I wanted to say was that I've seen this before. the jump raise then showed a shapely hand with a fit. also 1m-1S; 4S was shapely hand.

[straube]

jdonn, on Jan 2 2010, 03:26 AM, said:

It's not an awful idea but the memory load will be worse than you think.
- What will 1♣ 1♠ 3♠ now show? And what will *whatever bid used to show that hand* now show? etc etc
- What is the difference between 1♣ 1♠ 3♦ and 1♣ 1♠ 3♥?
- Will you remember all the bids revert back to their prior meaning on 1♦ 1♥?

There are also issues besides memory.
- Are you willing to lose the mini splinter altogether, or whatever you were using those bids for?
- Do you gain much? I mean what is the gain, specifically a 3♥ bid after 1♣ 1♠ 3♦? On any other auction you gain no room at all anyway. No one is stopping you from using 1♣ 1♠ 3♠ 3NT as rkc or whatever else you want, if you so choose.

I mean your idea may have some slight academic interest for the sickos among us. But the improvement to your system and to your game will be somewhere from slight to nonexistent (to negative!), there is just so much more to worry about first.

Thanks for your response.

Yeah, it would only possibly be useful for a partnership that was willing to add such complexity as asking bids. After 1D-1H, 3H and 1H-1S, 3S I've played such continuations as...

S1-asks
.....S1-concentrated 5422
.....S2-lower shortness
.....S3-higher shortness

So I can obviously get my minisplinter information...but not before I've committed to game.

The only jump reverse not used for the 18-19 would be 1C-1S, 3H. I'd probably keep this as a minisplinter such that...

3N-asks
.....4C-4-2-2-5
.....4D-diamond shortness
.....4H-not used.

As to what would be gained, I stand to show the 18-19 at a lower level after
1C-1H
1C-1S
1D-1S
which are pretty common sequences.

This means I could respond 1H to partner's 1C with something like xxx xxxx Axxx xx with less fear of being placed in game. Some bad things can still happen, but my odds of improving the contract are higher now.

I've always thought that 1m-1M, 4M was pretty obscene for a second reason which is exploring slam. After I use a jump reverse to show the 18-19....

1C-1H, 3D

I have a lot of room for responder to show his hand. For instance, he could show shortness....

3S-no shortness, wants to initiate cue-bidding (or alternately use as RKC)
3N-spade shortness
4C-club shortness
4D-diamond shortness

and this is really just a variation on Kokish (two-way) game tries.