[jillybean]

Dealer: East Vul: None Scoring: MP

♠ AT5 ♥ 8762 ♦ 642 ♣ A84

West North East South

 -     -     Pass  Pass
 1♣    Dbl   1♠    Dbl
 2♣    2♥    3♣    Pass
 Pass  3♦    Pass  ?
 

Please explain your choice.

[655321]

What was double?

If double was penalties, partner has a strong hand with hearts and we should have bid at least 4♥ last time.

If double was takeout, we have already bid our hand, and partner would rather play 3 of a red suit than defend 3♣. Just bid 3♥.

[Mbodell]

I assume our double of 1♠ was takeout/responsive, in which case we've bid our hand already. Partner is just bidding 3♦ as a courtesy to us in case we are 5♦4♥. Given we actually prefer hearts, bid 3♥.

You have 8 points, east and west are both in the bidding, how likely is it partner has 17+? The field doesn't rate to be in 4♥, so even if it makes 3♥+4 isn't likely to be a bad score.

[Jlall]

Don't bid game, you have already shown your values.

What 655321 said is absolutely right. FWIW most experts play a X here as penalty. I am assuming you and your partner have agreed for it to be takeout, which is fine as long as you have that agreement.

[jillybean]

Jlall, on Dec 21 2009, 08:38 PM, said:

What 655321 said is absolutely right. FWIW most experts play a X here as penalty. I am assuming you and your partner have agreed for it to be takeout, which is fine as long as you have that agreement.

We hadn't dicussed it. If we agree X is penalty I must pass?

[Jlall]

jillybean, on Dec 22 2009, 12:18 AM, said:

Jlall, on Dec 21 2009, 08:38 PM, said:

What 655321 said is absolutely right. FWIW most experts play a X here as penalty. I am assuming you and your partner have agreed for it to be takeout, which is fine as long as you have that agreement.

We hadn't dicussed it. If we agree X is penalty I must pass?

You can bid 2H

[jillybean]

Jlall, on Dec 21 2009, 10:20 PM, said:

jillybean, on Dec 22 2009, 12:18 AM, said:

Jlall, on Dec 21 2009, 08:38 PM, said:

What 655321 said is absolutely right. FWIW most experts play a X here as penalty. I am assuming you and your partner have agreed for it to be takeout, which is fine as long as you have that agreement.

We hadn't dicussed it. If we agree X is penalty I must pass?

You can bid 2H

Only as a passed hand?

[Jlall]

jillybean, on Dec 22 2009, 12:25 AM, said:

Jlall, on Dec 21 2009, 10:20 PM, said:

jillybean, on Dec 22 2009, 12:18 AM, said:

Jlall, on Dec 21 2009, 08:38 PM, said:

What 655321 said is absolutely right. FWIW most experts play a X here as penalty. I am assuming you and your partner have agreed for it to be takeout, which is fine as long as you have that agreement.

We hadn't dicussed it. If we agree X is penalty I must pass?

You can bid 2H

Only as a passed hand?

2H is just a competitive bid, it is a free bid at the 2 level so it shows some values also, maybe like 6-10. You don't need that much to bid when your partner makes a takeout double though. Since it's not a forcing bid, it would never show an opening hand (that hand would bid game or cuebid), so it doesn't make a difference if you're a PH or not.

[Stephen Tu]

Why would passed hand matter?

Bidding 2♥ over 1♠ does *not* show as much as jumping to 2♥ over (1♣)-dbl-(pass). It shows more than bidding 1♥ over the pass, since you wouldn't bid if you were broke. 2♥ basically shows about this, 7(6)-bad 10.

If you would have jumped to 2♥ over a pass, over 1♠ you would basically have to jump to 3♥ to show the same range, though you might only bid 2♥ with the bottom of that range.

[TylerE]

3♥ now. The first X was totally off the charts. Why not make a bid that actually describes your hand, like 1N?

[jillybean]

Im expecting 5 or atleast a good 4 to bid 2♥, I need to re think these auctions.

[TylerE]

2♥ only promises 4♥ because the responsive double promised 4♥. This is not a case of doubler freely introducing a suit.

[jillybean]

TylerE, on Dec 22 2009, 06:48 AM, said:

2♥ only promises 4♥ because the responsive double promised 4♥. This is not a case of doubler freely introducing a suit.

For us, 2♣ would promise 4+♥'s, the X didn't.

[TylerE]

If X doesn't promise 4♥, what is it supposed to show?

[jillybean]

TylerE, on Dec 22 2009, 07:04 AM, said:

If X doesn't promise 4♥, what is it supposed to show?

How about a hand with one 4CM but not both?

[TylerE]

That is what the X shows...the opponents bid the other major.

[jillybean]

TylerE, on Dec 22 2009, 07:30 AM, said:

That is what the X shows...the opponents bid the other major.

I know I shouldnt be asking this but exactly which double are you talking about?

[TylerE]

The X after 1♠.

[jillybean]

I'm lost but never mind, it doesnt matter.

[mikeh]

jb: as Justin said, the normal meaning for your double of 1♠ is penalty.

Partner's takeout double implied (some would say 'showed') spades, at least a decent 3 card holding and usually 4. Thus you will on occasion have a penalty double.

Also, and far more important, in my view, is that some opps will psyche 1M over a takeout double. This is known in some circles as a 'baby psyche', in the sense that it really shouldn't ever work. But, unless you play that your double of 1♠ is penalty, it will work often. Not good for your side!

And you really don't need a responsive double..... partner's double showed support for the unbid suits, or a very good hand....so... if you have one of the unbid suits....bid it!

Don't make RHO's choice of 1♠ stop you from bidding naturally. You do NOT need to promise 5 cards in your suit in order to bid...partner has implied a fit opposite which a 4 card suit is fine....

My suggestion, over the 1♠:

double: I have 4+ spades and solid values (good 8+)...I don't expect them to make if partner has Hxx in spades and a reasonable takeout double.

2♠: limited hand...5+ spades, maybe 5-8 hcp....with the same hand and more hcp I would double then bid spades.

With the actual hand, it is really a horrible 8 count, even tho I love Aces. It is, for me, enough to squeak 2♥, and after that it's up to partner.

If your agreement was that double was responsive (as above...I would NEVER play this), then you have shown your hand...you surely don't think you have extras?

Partner bid 2♥ expecting you to have approximately this....yes, you might have a little less...but so what? If he wanted to invite game....'do you have extras?'....he would have bid 3♥, not 2♥. He has NO interest in game at all...his 3♦ is an attempt to find an alternate partial...he might be 3=4=5=1 as one example where he is looking for the safest partial rather than the highest scoring one.

So, after partner's 2♥ call, the question about whether to bid game simply shouldn't arise if you have any trust in partner. This is a very important piece of bidding theory...when one partner has limited his hand, further bidding cannot be taken as showing more than the upper limit consistent with the earlier call. So...2♥ limited his hand and NO further bidding by him can show any more than was implied at that time.