[happybridge]

---

bidding go:
S W N E
1♣ 1♥ ?

NS:2/1
1.South open 1♣,west comp 1♥,you sit in north ,what is the bid of north?
2.if north X,east pass,what is the bid of south?
pls tell me more about your analysis.
thx in advance.

[the hog]

1S forcing. Whats the problem? Now I guess Sth bids 2S, north a forcing 2N or 3H if that is not available and again you should get to 6NT. Preferably 6C as with a 3-2 break this is easy. After all the very light H overcall has pinpointed all the cards for you


If Nth plays that X shows 4S and 1S shows 5, (not a good treatment by the way imo), then Sth bids 2C and you should reach a C slam or 6NT

[inquiry]

Do not double.

You have two reasonable choices. First is a forcing 1♠. the second is a forcing 2♥. If 2♥ is game force, that is what I would bid. If it is limit plus raise in clubs, I might start that too, then insist on bidding more....

1C-(1H)-2H-(P) (the pass from now on)
3C-3S (now game force).

[cherdano]

Hi Ben,

what is wrong with double? If partner bids the weak NT hand with 1NT, I can invite with 4NT. If he has 4 spades and bids 1♠, I can make a game forcing race to 3♠ via bidding 2♥ first and let the cuebidding begin. Similarly, if he rebids 2 or 3 clubs, or 2 diamonds, I know I am looking for a club slam.

If I bid 2♥ as a general game force, partner's rebid will most likely bid 3♣ and I dont know whether that is based on a 4cd suit (without having a heart stopper), a 5cd or a good 6cd suit. Double seems to allow to find out more about partner's hand at a lower level.

[the hog]

"what is wrong with double? "

Double is far better used to deny 4S and show both minors. This is a very useful treatment if the opponents jam the auction. There have been posts about this before and perhaps Ben will post a link. If you have a suit why not bid it naturally rather than futzing around with artificialities?

[luis]

1♠ what else ? 4+ cards.
Double usually denies 4 cards in spades and is used to show a forcing hand without a bid, typical hand: 3-2-4-4.

[cherdano]

All your replies make sense if you take this as a "What system should I play in this situation?" question. But in the standard system played by players who would post questions in the B/I section, a negative double shows the 2 unbid suits, with an emphasis on majors. In this system, there is nothing wrong with double. If doulbe denies 4 spades, then double is wrong of course.

I think it is more helpful to answer a bidding question in the system the poster will most likely play.

[paulg]

Although SAYC, and perhaps standard 2/1, uses double to show 4 spades and 1♠ to show 5 spades this is a treatment that is losing popularity. However worth noting for B/I pickup partners.

The_Hog and Luis note the treatment that has been more popular for experts, but reversing their meanings of 1♠ and double was seen frequently in the European Championships last month and is an emerging trend.

That is, double shows 4+ spades and 1♠ shows the minors. One advantage of this method is shown on this hand, where South can comfortable bid 1♠ rather than at a higher level.

So, answering the original question, I would double to show precisely 4 spades with a B/I player, I would bid 1♠ with adv players showing 4+ spades (as I believe this is the best "natural" treatment), and double with my regular partner to show 4+ spades.

This is a topic I've covered in my mentoring sessions as it is very important for regular partnerships to discuss.

Paul

[inquiry]

I also play dbl denies ♠'s on this auction...but in my reply, I wasn't using that arguement, simply because it is nt standard, and I wasn't triying to educate the beginners on an "upside down" version of negative doubles.

The reason I didn't double, is this hand is very far from NEGATIVE. Your hand, with a very nice fit for partners suit, absolute control in their suit, 18 hcp is very slam orieinted. If you were a ZAR point counter, this hand would be worrth 36 zar points or so in support of clubs. Your 36 plus an expected 26 from partner will give you a total of 62 Zars points, puttng you definetly in the slam zone.

So I advocate sharing the good news with partner to clarify the auction early. If 2♥ is game force, this is a clear 2♥ bid. Otherwise, 2♥ or 1♠ would be right. I see little to be gained with a negative double, unless teh overcaller psyched, your partner is minimum. Best to go slow and try to see what you can find out about your partner's hand.

For what it is worth, the 1♠ bid showing 4♠ and the double showing the minors here is a better treatment, imho. But let's save that discussion for a different thread.

Ben

[luis]

cardsharp, on Jul 7 2004, 01:27 PM, said:

Although SAYC, and perhaps standard 2/1, uses double to show 4 spades and 1♠ to show 5 spades this is a treatment that is losing popularity. However worth noting for B/I pickup partners.

The_Hog and Luis note the treatment that has been more popular for experts, but reversing their meanings of 1♠ and double was seen frequently in the European Championships last month and is an emerging trend.

That is, double shows 4+ spades and 1♠ shows the minors. One advantage of this method is shown on this hand, where South can comfortable bid 1♠ rather than at a higher level.

So, answering the original question, I would double to show precisely 4 spades with a B/I player, I would bid 1♠ with adv players showing 4+ spades (as I believe this is the best "natural" treatment), and double with my regular partner to show 4+ spades.

This is a topic I've covered in my mentoring sessions as it is very important for regular partnerships to discuss.

Paul

Paul,

I will have to disagree with you, playing "normal" negative doubles I don't think this hand is a hand that can use a negative double. First of all negative doubles usually deny support for pd and AQxx is a lot of nice support. Negative doubles usually show 4+ cards in the remaining suits and you have only 3 in diamonds.
If you can't bid 1s because it denies spades or shows 5 in your methods better to cuebid 2h showing a forcing raise with support for clubs.
Just my opinion.

Luis

[cherdano]

I agree with your hand evaluation, Ben. But why should negative double be reserved for "negative'" hands? Negative doulbe followed by cue bid is a game force to. I just think that if I doulbe now and bid 2♥ next round after partner's most likely 1♠, 1NT or 2♣ rebid. I have gained a little more information on a very low level.

So your advice "Best to go slow and try to see what you can find out about your partner's hand." is exactly how I would argue in favour of double But there is really little difference if 2♥ is a general game force. I think we mostly agree

[the hog]

""What system should I play in this situation?" question. But in the standard system played by players who would post questions in the B/I section, a negative double shows the 2 unbid suits, with an emphasis on majors"

I don't think this is the case Cherdano. Beginners here are taught that you make a negative double when you have no other bid available. That clearly is not the case here. I assume this is standard treatment wherever beginners are taught.

[helene_t]

6NT is not a good spot. Fortunately, you can't bid it since North is too weak for a quanti.

How should 6♣ be reached? I wouldn't support clubs directly with only four. North might try 4♣ after having shown spades. South cues 4♦. Is this a mandatory cuebid or is it positive? If it is positive, North can bid 6♣ now.

[EarlPurple]

I disagree that Dbl showing 4 spades and 1♠ showing 5 is a bad system. On this hand I can double first, and when partner bids 1NT I can bid 2♥ to show a good hand. I would like to be able to bid 4♣ over 3NT by partner and hopefully 6♣ can be reached.

I also question whether I can bid clubs lower to show that I have them, and suggest that we might be making slam in them.

In clubs, if trumps are 3-2 I can play off ♠K and ♠A and then lead a low one towards the jack, falling back on the diamond finesse if East turns up with QTxx in spades. If trumps are 4-1 with East holding 4 then I should play off top 2 hearts and immediately come to hand with SA and finesse the J. If that succeeds then ♦A to hand and ruff a heart, and if that succeeds too without an overruff, finesse the trumps and I'm home.

If the spade finesse loses I win supposed diamond return in hand and attempt to ruff the heart, then finesse trumps and play for either 3-3 spades (or 10 falling) or diamond finesse.

If the spade finesse succeeded but my heart is overruffed, I am in more trouble as I have to guess whether to finesse the diamond or play for 3-3 spades or the squeeze. At this point we know West started with 6 hearts, 1 club, 1 diamond and the SQ plus 2 small ones (11 cards). East started with 2 hearts, 4 clubs, 2 diamonds and 2 spades (10 cards). Odds are therefore 3-2 in our favour that the diamond finesse will succeed.

However consider the fact that West overcalled - what does he have for it? QJ to 6 hearts and ♠Q but surely must have ♦Q too.

[Fluffy]

I don´t know what is best, but either after doubling or bidding 1♠, south has to bid 1NT (unless you missbid to show 5♠ wich is nuts).

[whereagles]

For those who play double = 4 spades, 1♠ = 5 spades, the auction might follow

1C (1H) dbl pass
1S <-- this shows 3 spades and a min hand that doesn't have a better bid.

Genuine 4-card support can be shown via

1C (1H) dbl pass
2/3/4S

with 2/3/4S = min 12-14, med15-17, max 18-20

[paulhar]

luis, on Jul 7 2004, 08:47 AM, said:

I will have to disagree with you, playing "normal" negative doubles I don't think this hand is a hand that can use a negative double. First of all negative doubles usually deny support for pd and AQxx is a lot of nice support. (portions deleted)

Parner opens 1C, right hand opponent bids 1S.

You hold:
S- 6 5
H - Q 10 9 3
D - 6 5 4
C - A Q 6 3

Wouldn't everybody make a negative double? You need to show your hearts before lefty's possibly preempbive spade raise, or they might be lost. If partner bids 2D, his clubs are for real and you can still bid them.


Completely changing the subject, with both vulnerable, you hold:
S - 10 5 3
H - A 4 2
D - Q 5 2
C - A K 10 6

You open 1C, LHO bids 1H, partner bids 1S, RHO bids 2H. Isn't it nice to know partner has five spades, making a 2S bid easy? If partner could have four spades. bidding 2S might be a disaster. If you pass, partner could hardly be expected to bid 2S with:

S - Q J 6 4 2
H - K 5
D - J 10 3
C - 7 6 2

Maybe I lead a charmed life but I've never held the hand were I have been hamstrung by needing spades for a negative double. It seems that, when not having four spades and wanting to bid, you usually have a raise or a notrump bid, or a long enough other minor to come in freely on the next round, having passed.

[Trpltrbl]

A forcing 1♠.
Followed by some Gameforcing ♥ bid.

Mike

[Trpltrbl]

Quote

6NT is not a good spot. Fortunately, you can't bid it since North is too weak for a quanti.

I like my chances in 6 NT. The overcall pretty much marked all the missing HCP.
I think there are even possibilities for making 7 NT.
Maybe the Squeeze master Ben can figure that one out

Mike

[EarlPurple]

6NT probably makes as the ♠Q is likely to be onside. I win the expected heart lead, play 4 rounds of clubs, ace of spades, finesse ♠J, ♠K and the other top heart.

My problem would be when West showed up with Qx in spades because I will have to guess whether to drop ♦Q or throw him in with the 3rd round of hearts.