Tomi2, on Dec 24 2009, 10:57 AM, said:
one out of six is better than no girls at all. All of the players mentioned by you or me are recognized and respected as good players.
Good point, are you aware that USA also had a girl on our last World Junior Team? In fact, we had undoubtedly the best girl junior in the world on our team.
Do you think she was underestimated, or looked down upon, so she had any problems getting on the team? No, we voluntarily added her to the team when there were many good options available, and it was not even a close decision for us. In fact we decided to break up a partnership that had won 2 world junior teams already so that she could play more often.
Do you think we gave her a weak partner, in order to limit how often she could play? No, she played with one of the two players who would be playing all the boards.
Do you think she played the minimum amount of boards? No, she didn't, and she played more boards than a former 2 time world junior championship.
Do you think we lost faith in her as we were doing poorly? No, she played all of the final critical matches.
Do you think our captain was repeatedly sexually harassing her? No, he was gay!
Do you think that Jenny was ridiculed by her partner or teammates? Honestly I would say in the heat of battle that Jenny had more negative things to say about my game than vice versa. I think she and most people who were there could confirm that. And we have a rule on US junior teams that you can say nothing critical about your teammates play, and no one did about either of us as far as I know.
Do you think that Jenny was not invited to be on the junior team in Philadelphia? Of course she was, and we were going to try to get her to play every single board if she wanted to. This is because we know she is a great player, better than the other men on our team.
Unfortunately Jenny was unable to play the trials for our event due to her pregnancy. Yes, that's right, we have a trials. No problem, again we all voluntarily chose to add her to the team.
Jenny (and I) will not be on the junior team because it conflicts with the open and w omen's world championship (where Jenny no doubt will get a lot of money to play on someone's team, because she is so great), but she certainly was pushed very hard to play on it, and would undoubtedly have helped our team.
There was an event in Turkey recently where our trials was an online pairs qualifier (lol). The first thing I did was make sure Gavin and Jenny signed up. When Gavin said he couldn't, the second thing I did was ask Jenny to play. This is despite the fact that my other options included my best friend, Jeremy Fournier, or rising star Shane Blanchard who I currently live with and hang out with on a daily basis, or Roger Lee who I talk to every single day. If you think that I am biased against women based on this, I think that is ridiculous.
To say that we don't have one out of six women on our junior team like the other countries, or that that one out of six is not "recognized and respected" is simply false, as are the million other ignorant comments in this thread.
Show me one example of a good woman junior that has been turned away because people didn't want to be on a team with a girl. The USA junior program is about winning. We all want to win very badly. We'd rather have a better chance of winning than play on a team with a weak player.
When Ari and I were asked to join the junior team in Australia, we were picked over a player who had already won a gold medal with the 4 people involved, and a player who was extremely good friends with the 4 people. They were more experienced, more well liked, and definitely had hung out with those 4 guys a ton. We were picked anyways, because they thought we were better.
Friendship does not play a factor in who the best juniors choose to play on teams with. Race, sex, money, no factor like that plays a role. It's simply how good you are, and how good of a teammate you are.
But I really think if you think that a woman is LESS likely to be able to partner or play on teams with the top juniors than a man of equal skill level, you are really out of touch with reality. No, I'm not implying that the woman would be having sex with the boys. I know this will come as a shock to you, but young men like to simply interact with girls more than they do with guys, especially when it comes to bridge where young women who play are rare. This is especially true of young guys who are bridge players, most of whom are completely socially awkward.
I mean, sorry to burst everyone's bubble, but the cool kids aren't all swarming to play a card game with old people all the time. Most people who take up the game are likely to be nerdy and awkward. They are not likely to be the most popular kid at school who has tons of things to do, an active social life, and plays outdoor sports. As such, the kids who start to play bridge are generally terrible with girls, and don't know how to interact with them. When there is a girl who plays bridge, these guys are typically excited that they have common ground with a girl to talk about. It is a completely standard part of an awkward teenager's life to want to interact with girls, even if they are not having sex, and have no chance of having sex.
Why would anyone think that top guy players would want to play on a team with a bad player who is a guy? If you're bad and want to improve, your best chance is being a girl ainec.
And if the girl is actually good, there is just no chance she's going to be discriminated against off the junior team. Jenny is the one example of a junior woman who is good in USA in recent times, and she has certainly been treated fairly by the program. If you disagree with this, please give me a counterexample of a woman who was good enough to be on the team, but did not make it.
Of course it is a problem for the game that few young women reach the level necessary to be on the USA junior team. But to blame this on "drinking" and "sex" and "people underestimating them" is terrible. How about this:
1) Far less women start playing bridge than men before they know anything about the environment at bridge tournaments. This is because:
1a) Society does not encourage them to spend ridiculous amounts of time on games which can be considered ok for a young boy. See chess, backgammon, poker, video games, where young men also start playing far more often than young women. Bridge is not unique as a game that many more men begin to play than women.
1b) Women are more social than men. This is true of young ones and old ones alike. Well, bridge is an anti-social game where the people are incredibly nasty, and there are very few young players. You sit inside and you barely speak for hours. Women are less likely to want to start doing such a thing.
1c) There are less socially awkward women than socially awkward men. Again, it is the socially awkward who are generally attracted to bridge.
OK, so we already have many many many less girls playing bridge than boys. This alone will mean that there are many many many less girls who reach the elite level. But we have even more factors for why a boy who starts playing bridge is more likely to reach an elite level than a girl.
2) Society encourages boys to be hyper competitive, win at all costs, from a young age. They do not encourage girls to do the same. This means boys are more likely to dedicate the enormous time necessary to reach the highest level
3) Women are generally more well rounded than men. I am not sure if this is an environmental or biological thing, possibly both. The point being, women are less likely to become obsessed with a stupid game that has no financial gain than men.
At the end of the day, it simply takes a lot of time and a lot of hard work to become a great bridge player. Putting in that amount of time at a young age means you lose out on a lot of areas in your life. I literally couldn't take drivers ed for 2 years because I was going to a sectional every weekend. That's right, I chose NOT TO BE ABLE TO DRIVE over missing 4 sectionals so I could take drivers ed. That is not normal behavior for a 16 year old. I skipped a lot of parties in HS so I could go play bridge. My girlfriend dumped me because I spent more time on bridge than her. Instead of trying to go on spring break to Mexico, I would hope to go to the spring nationals. Instead of doing homework, I played OKbridge.
I am not complaining, but I am saying that I think for a variety of reasons, a boy is far more likely to do this than a girl.
However, when a girl does show talent, she is IMO encouraged FAR more than a guy would be who showed an equal amount of talent. From my own personal experience, Meredith Beck and I were coming up at the same time. At the very beginning I was much better than her and had far more achievements than her, but she was the one who got almost all of the attention when she was becoming a life master. She was, afterall, the youngest woman life master ever. The reason she got more attention was because she was a more special case than me, there are far fewer young women playing bridge well than men, and encouraging/promoting/advertising one who is is important for the game.
But the fact remains if she was a man, she would have got less attention than she got as a woman. I have no problem with this system, but it is pro-woman, not anti-woman.
To say that someone like Meredith was DISCOURAGED from playing bridge by the general public is absolutely ridiculous. The fact is, girls like Meredith just don't start playing very often. This is not because of how they are treated at bridge tournaments, it is completely societal. There are no women video gaming stars either.
The argument that women are discouraged from junior bridge tournaments because there is drinking and sex is absurd to me. Shockingly, young women also like drinking and having sex. I mean who do you think the guys are having sex with? I'm sure some women don't like being showered with attention and hit on, and some do. Unfortunately, this is a fact of life when you are a young woman, awkward guys are going to try to talk to you. If this is a problem in your opinion, then you can blame that on our culture and society. You cannot actually think that this will only occur at a bridge tournament.
The fact is that drinking is a social thing that happens when young people get together. It happens in college, it happens at tournaments, it happens everywhere. Nobody is forced to drink at bridge tournaments, but most end up doing so. There is a reason for that. If you honestly think that drinking is discouraging to girls, I honestly think that you are sexist yourself.
Let me ask you something, what do you think is an effective sales pitch to a girl (or guy) who has never played bridge who is considering going to a junior camp.
A) "Omg you should totally come to junior camp, there are bridge classes during the day which are fun, and the rest of the time is just good times drinking with cool people and having some adventures. It is totally chill and laid back, and you'll have an awesome time"
B ) "You know, bridge is the most exciting card game in the world. It teaches communication, partnership, logic, and keeps your mind sharp when you're old. You can learn it in a safe and friendly environment by going to junior camp! Don't worry, everyone takes it seriously and there is no drinking."
If you think it is B you are naive, and out of touch with what appeals to young people. Every girl who ever went to junior camp who hadn't played bridge before was there for A. Yes that's right, girls who wanted to drink and have fun! Of course, we hope that these people will learn B for themselves, and ultimately that's what will keep them coming back to the game, but that is not what will get someone to go to the junior camp before they even know anything about bridge.
Do people have sex? Omg, yes! It is not rape, so presumably the girls and the guys BOTH want to do that sometimes. This is part of life as a young person. Get over it. The possibility of having sex does not deter young women from going to junior tournaments.
As far as serious junior tournaments like the world junior teams, have you ever been to one? Drinking is extremely frowned upon by the players and coaches. Trust me, I know, I have been lectured by teammates and coaches many times for drinking during a tournament. In these things, everyone is there to WIN, and drinking does not help you win. Your teammates DO look down upon you if you drink during the tournament. I can honestly say in Turkey that no one on any of the american teams drank until the teams were over. If you are going to talk about what goes on at junior tournaments, it would help to go to one first.
Believe it or not there are some people bitter at the opportunities young juniors have when they weren't able to have them themselves, and they say disparaging things about the junior program, even if they aren't true.
For instance one might see Justin Lall drunk at a national and start saying "omg all the juniors do is drink, they are alcoholics. All people do at these junior tournaments is party." This is not a logical conclusion to draw, but unfortunately some people want to jump to conclusions and spread rumors, because of said bitterness.
What about invitational tournaments, like the one in the Netherlands? I played it in once, and our team had 2 women on it. Do you think they were discriminated against? Of course not, if anything, they were more likely to be invited because they were women, because it is good for the game to encourage young women to play, and for young women to be on the teams.
Is it possible that some woman at some time has been harassed in the junior program? Certainly. It probably happens LESS frequently than the odds of a woman going to a random place and being harassed though. Unfortunately it is a problem with our society that sometimes young women get harassed. To insinuate that this happens more often in the junior program than on the street is simply misguided. I hope that all women speak up if a member of the junior program harasses them, so that that person can be fired or punished. As far as I know, no one who works in the junior program has been fired for this reason.
If you have been spreading ignorant lies or hearsay in this thread, it would be nice if you stopped.
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