[eyhung]

Vampyr, on Jan 12 2010, 06:51 PM, said:

eyhung, on Jan 12 2010, 05:54 PM, said:

I have never run into a problem with "playing up"

I thought that this could be a problem with the (inexplicably) hugely popular bracketed knockouts.

I rarely play in bracketed KOs, my time is limited to pairs events and Swisses. But I am pretty sure that one can always play up into the top bracket, especially if you have good credentials. I know the juniors in the US junior program are able to play top bracket without having the requisite masterpoints.

[MarkDean]

eyhung, on Jan 12 2010, 09:07 PM, said:

Vampyr, on Jan 12 2010, 06:51 PM, said:

eyhung, on Jan 12 2010, 05:54 PM, said:

I have never run into a problem with "playing up"

I thought that this could be a problem with the (inexplicably) hugely popular bracketed knockouts.

I rarely play in bracketed KOs, my time is limited to pairs events and Swisses. But I am pretty sure that one can always play up into the top bracket, especially if you have good credentials. I know the juniors in the US junior program are able to play top bracket without having the requisite masterpoints.

My experience is this greatly depends on the part of the country you are in.

In NJ, this request was categorically denied.
In the bay area, I find it is usually honored.

At the San Diego NABC, we belonged in bracket 5, asked to be in the highest bracket possible, and were put in bracket 3.

[mike777]

MarkDean, on Jan 13 2010, 12:00 AM, said:

eyhung, on Jan 12 2010, 09:07 PM, said:

Vampyr, on Jan 12 2010, 06:51 PM, said:

eyhung, on Jan 12 2010, 05:54 PM, said:

I have never run into a problem with "playing up"

I thought that this could be a problem with the (inexplicably) hugely popular bracketed knockouts.

I rarely play in bracketed KOs, my time is limited to pairs events and Swisses. But I am pretty sure that one can always play up into the top bracket, especially if you have good credentials. I know the juniors in the US junior program are able to play top bracket without having the requisite masterpoints.

My experience is this greatly depends on the part of the country you are in.

In NJ, this request was categorically denied.
In the bay area, I find it is usually honored.

At the San Diego NABC, we belonged in bracket 5, asked to be in the highest bracket possible, and were put in bracket 3.

really wow...this seems wierd...what rule allows all of this...geez....


You make it sound like the rules are just make up on the fly. I wonder what other top secret stuff goes on behind closed doors for favorites....

in any event I vote for full disclosure.

[Mbodell]

eyhung, on Jan 12 2010, 08:54 AM, said:

And mbodell, nothing prevents you from playing up in GNT or NAP (although you are restricted to one flight for NAP). I myself am planning to play in Flt Open, A, and B in your district this year, so you can do the same. If the ACBL wants to give me three chances to win some money, I figure, why not?

Yeah, in the example I meant more for the actual national events where you need to prequalify. I was trying to give examples of where you can't just walk up and say "put me in this event" without going in to the arbitrary nature of what Mark described of random play up or not.

I know you can play multiple flights in GNT because last year I was eligible for GNT C, played in it with one team and failed to qualify (3rd straight year of district 3/4 in GNT C qualifiers), but played with a different team and won the district GNT B. So thank goodness for being able to play up.

[Lobowolf]

Mbodell, on Jan 13 2010, 05:29 AM, said:

eyhung, on Jan 12 2010, 08:54 AM, said:

And mbodell, nothing prevents you from playing up in GNT or NAP (although you are restricted to one flight for NAP).  I myself am planning to play in Flt Open, A, and B in your district this year, so you can do the same.  If the ACBL wants to give me three chances to win some money, I figure, why not?

Yeah, in the example I meant more for the actual national events where you need to prequalify. I was trying to give examples of where you can't just walk up and say "put me in this event" without going in to the arbitrary nature of what Mark described of random play up or not.

I know you can play multiple flights in GNT because last year I was eligible for GNT C, played in it with one team and failed to qualify (3rd straight year of district 3/4 in GNT C qualifiers), but played with a different team and won the district GNT B. So thank goodness for being able to play up.

The GNT isn't really "playing up" in that way moving into a different KO bracket is. Flight B of the GNT has a "top end" masterpoint requirement, but not a bottom end one; if you don't have too many points for Flight B, you're explicitly eligible, even if you would also qualify for Flight C.

[xcurt]

eyhung, on Jan 12 2010, 11:54 AM, said:

(although you are restricted to one flight for NAP).

If this is a new rule for 2010, where is it?

http://www.acbl.org/assets/documents/play/...nsofContest.pdf

I can't find the 2009-2010 CoC.

[PrecisionL]

NAP Conditions of Contest 2009-2010   Click on this for the whole document

PRIOR TO THE NATIONAL LEVEL OF PLAY
Flight C Eligible Players May play in Flights A, B & C until concurrence forces a choice
Flight B Eligible Players May play in Flight B and Flight A until concurrence forces a choice
Flight A Eligible Players May play in Flight A only

MULTI-FLIGHT QUALIFICATIONS
Flight C category players — Retain qualification in each flight (A, B & C) in which they have achieved the finish stated for each level of play.
Flight B category players — Retain qualification in each flight (except Flight C) in which they have achieved the finish stated for each level of play.
Flight A category players — Compete in Flight A only.

[awm]

My experiences in trying to "play up" in bracketed events (KOs and occasional bracketed swisses) have been pretty lousy. While I've managed it a few times, I'd say my request is denied about 75% of the time. There are some ridiculous stories about this that I'd rather not go into here. Admittedly, I have tried this less in recent years since I have a few more points and many of my recent teammates have really huge hoards of points (i.e. Marshall Miles).

This situation doesn't apply to pairs events (which are usually organized such that the highest flight still starts at zero, like A/X pairs where X is 0-something with a concurrent B/C/D pairs), nor does it apply to NABC+ events (which, if they require pre-qualification at all, usually have a pretty low bar like "life master" or "blue ribbon Q").

However, the (perhaps unfortunate) state of affairs is that many of the best players in regional tournaments play KOs throughout. The field in the A/X pairs is usually not so strong. So the KO bracketing issue is an important concern -- yes, we have the option to "just play pairs" but it's not the same level of competition. NABCs are great, but they are just three times a year and many years none of them will be local, so ideally regionals would offer some good events too.

It may be worth mentioning that a few regionals have started hosting "special multi-day events" in the NABC style (our district 23 summer regional in Pasadena has a two day pairs and two day swiss teams, and district 21 has a two day swiss in Sacramento and a two day pairs in Santa Clara). These events do typically draw a strong field and are open to all.

[hanp]

My experiences in the past have been similar to Adam's. I also agree with mike777 that a system in which it matters a lot whether the director knows/likes you is very bad.

The idea that masterpoints should determine in which flight you can play is silly imo.

[jdonn]

I have never had a problem playing up. But I'm friends with most of the directors. Maybe complaining about directors and rulings every week or two on public message boards gets back to them and makes them not want to do favors for someone? I mean just make friends with a few directors and go to those ones when you want a favor, it's like everything else in life.

[awm]

Usually I'm not the one who makes the request to play up; I let my teammates handle it. And the worst problems have occurred with directors who don't know me at all.

Honestly the directors who don't like me/who I don't like, I would never ask for any sort of favor. The last time I tried with one of these, I had a medical issue and needed to sit north/south, and when I made the request the first thing the director did was go and switch me from north/south to east/west. Eventually I managed to resolve the issue by appealing to a different, more friendly director, who told me I could switch directions if the opponents at my table would swap entries with me, which they were kind enough to do.

It's possible that exceptions are made for friends of the directors. I know there is a semi-official exception for people who have played on USA junior teams, and have taken advantage of this a few times when I had teammates who had done so. But the default decision seems to be refusing to honor any request to play up, with rare exceptions made in special cases.