[luke warm]

it looks like bin laden has nosed out obama and it's between him and dubya

[barmar]

Obama has already won a premature Nobel Prize, it's way too early for him to win person of the decade. I'd go with dubya. He may have been a horrible president, but he was in our face, actively messing things up, for most of the decade.

[Gerben42]

Barry, why do you only nominate two US presidents? You might just as well take Russian president Putin or Germany's chancellor Merkel, they were very important and influential this decade.

Looking at Luke's link, I would have voted for the Google guys. I mean, the influence of a president is often overestimated, but Google surely is the company of the decade.

[hotShot]

Dubya is the person that definitely dominated the last decade.

10 years ago who would have thought that the USA would imprison people without a trial and without the status as prisoners of war. Who would have thought that there would be military actions in 2 foreign countries. Who would have thought that the alliance between the US and Nato (esp. Germany) could get a crack because of that.

[Hanoi5]

Where is Hugo Chavez?

I would have voted for the google guys.

[hotShot]

Everybody knows google, but the google guys stay in the background.

[gwnn]

Gerben42, on Dec 19 2009, 09:32 AM, said:

Barry, why do you only nominate two US presidents? You might just as well take Russian president Putin or Germany's chancellor Merkel, they were very important and influential this decade.

Maybe influential for you

Even in Romania there are plenty of people who have never heard of Angela Merkel and Putin and there are few people that have any idea what they stand for etc. Everybody everywhere knows about GWB and what he 'achieved' during his terms And Romania is an EU member, I can only imagine how many people in Afghanistan know about Putin or Merkel.

[Winstonm]

hotShot, on Dec 19 2009, 07:26 AM, said:

Everybody knows google, but the google guys stay in the background.

Dick Cheney runs Google, too?

[Hanoi5]

Quote

Dick Cheney runs Google, too?

Of course not, else there would be random shootings of google users.

[blackshoe]

hotShot, on Dec 19 2009, 04:51 AM, said:

10 years ago who would have thought that the USA would imprison people without a trial and without the status as prisoners of war.

Me. But then I remember history. Lincoln did it. So did FDR. Although in both those cases the people imprisoned were US citizens.

[Winstonm]

blackshoe, on Dec 19 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

hotShot, on Dec 19 2009, 04:51 AM, said:

10 years ago who would have thought that the USA would imprison people without a trial and without the status as prisoners of war.

Me. But then I remember history. Lincoln did it. So did FDR. Although in both those cases the people imprisoned were US citizens.

Your memory is not consistent with facts if you compare Bush's actions to those of Lincoln. It is a common ruse some have used to equate the claim of Bush to being a "war president" to Lincoln's actions because Lincoln acted during a time of "war".

But that is not what happened.

Lincoln did not act under powers granted by war; Lincoln acted under the power to suppress rebellion.

So Lincoln is not such a good example; Better is FDR.

There is a strong comparison between the actions of FDR and Bush:

Quote

The courts found that the government had intentionally withheld these reports and other critical evidence, at trials all the way up to the Supreme Court, which would have proved that there was no military necessity for the exclusion and internment of Japanese Americans. In the words of Department of Justice officials writing during the war, the justifications were based on "willful historical inaccuracies and intentional falsehoods."

[Lobowolf]

blackshoe, on Dec 19 2009, 10:14 AM, said:

hotShot, on Dec 19 2009, 04:51 AM, said:

10 years ago who would have thought that the USA would imprison people without a trial and without the status as prisoners of war.

Me. But then I remember history. Lincoln did it.

It figures, what with Lincoln being a Republican and all.

[blackshoe]

I'm not going to argue this, Winston. Hotshot spoke of imprisoning people without a trial and without pow status. Lincoln did that. I don't really give a damn what excuse he used.

[Winstonm]

Quote

I don't really give a damn what excuse he used.

Let's see, reason is synonymous with excuse, right? You don't give a damn about reason?

[Lobowolf]

Where's the love you espouse for "rule of law," Winston? "Suppression of Rebellion" is a specious distinction - the Supreme Court ruled (and on more than one occasion, I believe) that Lincoln violated the Constitution and acted illegally.

[kenberg]

luke warm, on Dec 18 2009, 06:01 PM, said:

it looks like bin laden has nosed out obama and it's between him and dubya

Coming down to these two choices is my idea of a really crappy decade. Or perhaps just my idea of a really stupid poll.

[Winstonm]

Lobowolf, on Dec 19 2009, 01:05 PM, said:

Where's the love you espouse for "rule of law," Winston?  "Suppression of Rebellion" is a specious distinction - the Supreme Court ruled (and on more than one occasion, I believe) that Lincoln violated the Constitution and acted illegally.

In exactly which quote do you see me condoning the action of Lincoln? I merely stated that the legal basis claimed among the three actions was totally different, thereby excluding using one as precedent for another.

But you spar with gnats - here you are a real attorney while all I have are ignorant opinions.

Quote

"Suppression of Rebellion" is a specious distinction

Actually, on further review I find this hilarious coming from someone whose entire profession is based on making specious distinctions of just this sort.

[Lobowolf]

Heh.

btw with respect to the FDR excerpt, did you know that Italian-Americans and German-Americans were sent to internment camps, also?

[blackshoe]

If that question is directed at me, Lobo, yes, I did.

I didn't say that Lincoln's actions - or FDR's - were a "precedent" for Bush's.

[Winstonm]

Lobowolf, on Dec 19 2009, 09:39 PM, said:

Heh.

btw with respect to the FDR excerpt, did you know that Italian-Americans and German-Americans were sent to internment camps, also?

As for me, I was not aware of that.

Regardless, I in no way can justify any comparison of the injustices and abuses of power used by both Lincoln and Roosevelt to those instigated and used by the administration of the Cheney-Bush.

You simply cannot place state-sponsored kidnapping and organized torture in the same category as illegal imprisoning for a limited duration of time - you cannot claim show trials using coerced evidence to be in the same category as real military tribunals.

Don't get me wrong - Obama is no better and is in many ways worse than Cheney-Bush for adopting the same DOJ stance on military tribunals.

What we have become is not the nation of Lincoln or FDR: our justice for those held at Gitmo and elsewhere around the world has much more in common with Stalin's show trials than any presidential precedent.