[Vampyr]

Fluffy, on Dec 11 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

Well, I dunno the rules fully, but when I am directin on the local I carry boards all the time, that's what a competent director should had done IMO, carry the board himself.

I agree. I don't have a strong opinion about the original poster's actions; Laws 42A and 45B suggest that the dummy has the right to remain at the table during the play of the hand, but it's certainly not clear to me.

However, I am perplexed by the director's behaviour. He can go the the OP's table and ask him to move the boards but cannot move them himself?

[jdonn]

I believe everyone is starting to miss the point. The director's instruction should be followed, it doesn't matter whether or not the player agrees with it. There might be certain exceptions, such as the instruction being illegal or humiliating, but "it would be easier for the director to move the board himself" or "I have never seen a director make this request before" are not good reasons at all to ignore his request.

Like I said, just do it and talk to him later. Maybe he didn't realize you would be bothered by getting up as dummy. Maybe he was very busy with something else. Maybe for this director that request is normal (it was pointed out earlier in the thread that it's lawful, after all.)

Final note, the director didn't cause the problem of your table being behind, your table did. You should be willing to make a (tiny!) sacrifice to help alleviate that problem.

[jdonn]

cicus, on Dec 11 2009, 11:52 AM, said:

And, yes, this tournament is played with screens and table are in absolute disorder to minimize the chance of seeing something accidentally. And it would have taken quite some time to find the target table as it was my partner who carried the boards until that time.

That's a really really lame excuse. Are you saying you would have complied if you knew where the table was? Did you bother to ask where it was? I doubt the answer to either of those questions is yes.

[cicus]

Fluffy, on Dec 11 2009, 10:26 AM, said:

BTW: this is not the forum anymore for this kind of post.

I did not know that. Are you the forum moderator here?

[cicus]

Fluffy, on Dec 11 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

Well, I dunno the rules fully, but when I am directin on the local I carry boards all the time, that's what a competent director should had done IMO, carry the board himself.

In fairness to the director, that is impossible. There are 16 tables, how could he pass over all the boards alone? And if he has ruling to make...

[Fluffy]

, you were the only one to missunderstand me .

I Agree that you should just follow what director says, and that he has the rights to apply penalties if you do not, but director created the problem himself.

I disagree that you should just do anything that director says. Like a firend of mine used to say: We are paying the director, he is our employee, not the contrary.


Some directors are just stupid, I remember one who wanted to penalice our opponent's card after he just ordered them to play it mistakenly.

[blackshoe]

The director did not create a problem, the players at the table did.

I cannot help but think there's more to this story then we've heard here. For one thing, many places consider 10% of a top a sufficient PP for a first offense. In fact, the ACBL is the only one which has a higher "standard penalty" (that's in quotes because in fact the size of a PP is at TD discretion everywhere, so far as I know) and even here it's 25%. OTOH, willful disobedience of a director's instruction may very well rate a higher PP, particularly if you argue with him.

I don't think I have or would ever ask a player to move boards when I can do it myself. But I can certainly envision situations where I have something else I need to do, and both that something else and the movement of the boards need to happen quickly. If I asked a player to move the boards in that situation, even if he wasn't North, and was dummy, I would certainly issue a PP if he refused, and if he argued, well, the PP would keep growing until he stopped arguing.

The dummy's "right" to observe the play does not trump a director's instructions.

As a director, I provide a service. I am not the players' employee. If I am anyone's employee, it's the club owner. In some places, where clubs are membership organizations, perhaps it's different, but it's certainly not universal that "the TD is the players' employee". And even if he is, both he and the players are bound by the rules. Maddog Probst, who was a director at the Young Chelsea in London used to get into disagreements with the club management from time to time. If he felt what the club wanted him to do wasn't right, and he couldn't talk them out of it, he'd quit. They'd always rehire him, sooner or later.

If you think the director in your local club is stupid, don't play there as long as he's directing.

I think that Fluffy's point on appropriateness is that now that the International Bridge Laws Forum has joined the Bridge Base Forums, that's a better place to post questions like this than is this forum. I'm a moderator in the IBLF, but not here, or I'd move the thread myself.

[cicus]

blackshoe, on Dec 12 2009, 12:59 AM, said:

I cannot help but think there's more to this story then we've heard here. For one thing, many places consider 10% of a top a sufficient PP for a first offense.

In this tournament a total of 248 boards will be played (it lasts 8 weeks). 50% of the board top is about 0.2% of the total score.

[blackshoe]

Ah, well, that's much more reasonable, then.

[Jlall]

I really feel like the human element is often missing in the laws forum. There is no us vs them mentality with players/directors, you all have the same goal, keep the game running smoothly.

99 % of the time the director can just move the boards in this scenario. It would take at MOST 45 seconds extra, and that is being generous.

But if it's really one of the 1 % of the time where the director cannot move the boards himself, he has this cool option, COMMUNICATING THAT FACT!

Director: Can you please move the boards?
Player: No can you?

If the director really has a legit reason not to, just say "look I'm really sorry, 99 % of the time I would move them, but I really can't in this case, if you'd please do it this round that would be a big help to me"

Sure, the director didn't flex his big muscles of power here, but there is no way this approach can fail. No human can reject something said like that. In fact, the player and director have just bonded, the player having done something nice when kindly asked to.

I mean I really doubt this was one of those 1 % of the times since the director had enough time to issue a PP and get into a pissing contest, but that is such an easy way to handle it if it was one of those times.

Getting into a pissing contest is stupid, obviously the director wins, but to what end? Again, we are all working as a team to keep the game running smoothly and with no problems. Doing things counter to that goal seems quite sill.

I agree with those who said there MUST have been history here, but it sounds like the director had it out for this player for sure which is why he took this stance. It also seems like the player probably had it coming a little bit, but this whole episode was silly and unnecessary.

Common kindness, respect, and the magic words of "please, thank you," combined with advanced phrases like "I really appreciate that" go really far. Saying move the boards or I will PP you and I'm well within my rights to do so is completely losing the human element imo.

[TimG]

Jlall, on Dec 12 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

Director: Can you please move the boards?
Player: No can you?

If the director really has a legit reason not to, just say "look I'm really sorry, 99 % of the time I would move them, but I really can't in this case, if you'd please do it this round that would be a big help to me"

Sure, the director didn't flex his big muscles of power here, but there is no way this approach can fail. No human can reject something said like that. In fact, the player and director have just bonded, the player having done something nice when kindly asked to.

Imagine if when the director politely asked "can you please move the boards?" the player just moved them. Wouldn't this be some nice player-director bonding, the player having done something nice when kindly asked to?

I really don't see the player's "No can you?" as anything but rude.

[PeterGill]

The dummy who leaves the table might even be (but perhaps is not) breaching:
Law 74A1 A players should refrain from paying insufficient attention to the game.
and/or Law 74C8: "The following are examples of violations of procedure:
(8.) leaving the table needlessly before the round is called."
["needlessly" might apply if the TD could and should do the job.]

I think that the player could say to the Director "Could you, please?" (definitely not "No, could you?") and if the Director says "No", I would do it myself. I would worry a bit that my spoken request might distract the players and slow down my already late table, perhaps breaching Law 74B2, Law 74A2, Law 42 and Law 74B4 [but not Law 43A1©] - up to 6 breaches of Bridge Law by me to comply with the TD's request - look them up if you like.

If you are sent off at football, you leave the field whether it is right or wrong, when the Ref tells you to. If you do what the TD says, you might get friendlier rulings from that TD in future, so self-interest dictates doing what you are told.

At a Championship event, I think the TD's strange request suffers from a lack of thought. When I direct games (three times a week), of course I move the boards if need be, in exactly this sort of situation. That's what I'm paid to do.

Law 81 discusses Delegation of the duties of the Director, but I would never delegate what I could do myself to the players. To the caddies yes, but not to the players. Directors, like players, come in all shapes and sizes, and make errors, just as players do. That's bridge. On he other hand, the TD did have the authority to issue the penalty under Law 90B(8).

[MFA]

gnasher, on Dec 11 2009, 02:34 PM, said:

The director has the right to tell you to move the board:

LAW 8A said:

1. The Director instructs the players as to the proper movement of boards and progression of contestants.
2. Unless the Director instructs otherwise, the North player at each table is responsible for moving the boards just completed at his table to the proper table for the following round.

If you refuse, he has the right to penalise you for it:

LAW 90 said:

The Director, in addition to implementing the rectifications in these Laws, may also assess procedural penalties for any offence that unduly delays or obstructs the game, inconveniences other contestants, violates correct procedure, or requires the award of an adjusted score at another table.
...
Offences Subject to Procedural Penalty
...
failure to comply promptly with tournament regulations or with instructions of the Director.

Since you want opinions, here is mine: I think your attitude is unbelievably selfish. If the move is called whilst you're still playing, the director shouldn't have to ask you to move the board - you should already have done it.

This.

[cicus]

Jlall, on Dec 12 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

99 % of the time the director can just move the boards in this scenario. It would take at MOST 45 seconds extra, and that is being generous.

I agree with those who said there MUST have been history here, but it sounds like the director had it out for this player for sure which is why he took this stance. It also seems like the player probably had it coming a little bit, but this whole episode was silly and unnecessary.

I really appreciate your reply. I also like the approach you suggest.


To sharpen the picture, let me have these additions.

1. Our championships are played with screeens and rather randomly scattered tables, in order to minimize unauthorized information passing around.

2. It is probably for the above reason that the players are obliged to forward the boards. The TD simply would not find the tables. When a change is called, you can see players looking in all directions, desparately searching for their target table.

3. Yes, there is history here. I and this particular TD dislike each other.

4. He came up to our table and told us that dummy might as well forward the 1st board as the change has already been called. I was anxious about being late and also the 2nd board and told him I did not care. It was now that he told me he deducts half board.


Let me thank all for your contributions, there is a faint chance you've made me wiser.

[blackshoe]

Law 8A2 said:

Unless the Director instructs otherwise, the North player at each table is responsible for moving the boards just completed at his table to the proper table for the following round.

Personalities aside, absent instruction from the TD, if North fails in this obligation, and this causes a problem at the next table, I would consider a PP for NS. If the TD has instructed some other player to move the boards, that instruction governs, of course.

Again personalities aside, if I instructed a player to move boards, and he refused and told me "I don't care", he'd damn sure get a PP.

[barmar]

cicus, on Dec 11 2009, 12:58 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 11 2009, 10:23 AM, said:

Well, I dunno the rules fully, but when I am directin on the local I carry boards all the time, that's what a competent director should had done IMO, carry the board himself.

In fairness to the director, that is impossible. There are 16 tables, how could he pass over all the boards alone? And if he has ruling to make...

There was no indication that all 16 tables were running behind. IIUC, this was the only board that needed to be moved. No one is suggesting that the Director should move all the boards every round, just that he take care of this board to get things moving. Directors do this all the time, at every level from clubs to national tournaments.

But I agree with all the responses that say that you have to follow the director's instructions. Maybe there were several tables he had to deal with, and it would have been inconvenient for him to move the board at this time. The next table needs the board right away, and someone has to get them there.

[the hog]

peachy, on Dec 11 2009, 11:10 PM, said:

If the TD instructs you to do something, you are obligated to do it.
snipped

No, this is not the case. If for example, the TD instructs you to revoke during the play of a trick, or to insult an opponent, you do not have to obey.
I actually DO have sympathy with the OP. In a club game, who cares? This however was a Championship event, and the OP is correct - dummy does have rights and cannot exercise those rights away from the table. A sensible TD would simply have moved the boards herself.

[gordontd]

I think it would have been relevant for the OP to have told us at the beginning

Quote

...that the players are obliged to forward the boards. The TD simply would not find the tables. When a change is called, you can see players looking in all directions, desparately searching for their target table.

[helene_t]

cicus, on Dec 11 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 11 2009, 10:26 AM, said:

BTW: this is not the forum anymore for this kind of post.

I did not know that. Are you the forum moderator here?

Would you please move this thread to the appropriate forum?

[the hog]

helene_t, on Dec 14 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

cicus, on Dec 11 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Dec 11 2009, 10:26 AM, said:

BTW: this is not the forum anymore for this kind of post.

I did not know that. Are you the forum moderator here?

Would you please move this thread to the appropriate forum?

Offline bridge seems like a perfect place for the post.