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Double question there are so many of them

#1 User is offline   mohitz 

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  Posted 2009-December-08, 12:46

1♣ - (2♦) - X - (2♥)
X

1♣ - (2♦) - X - (2♥)
p - p - X


What are these doubles? Does the answer change if 1C is opened in 3rd seat.
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#2 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2009-December-08, 13:11

1. I play this as cards, but others around here would say takeout (although I'm not sure what this means).

2. Definitely takeout - shows a better hand than the original negative x but no clear direction.
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#3 User is offline   jonottawa 

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Posted 2009-December-08, 13:23

Both offers to defend imo. Pretty common spot for a 2♥ psych.
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#4 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2009-December-08, 13:26

1. I play this as 100% penalty. This is a common psych situation, and opponents have bid a suit which partner presumably showed with his takeout double. Same as (2♦)-X-(2♥)-X.

2. Cards; responder has a good hand but no clear direction. Probably he has a semi-balanced invite without a diamond stopper. In any case, opener is allowed to leave this in with a few hearts, or bid notrump with diamond stopper, or rebid a long club suit. Similar to (2♦)-X-(2♥)-P-(P)-X, which shows extras but is not really "takeout for black suits."
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#5 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-December-08, 15:14

I think both are straight penalty. Isn't that what a double is in a suit partner has shown or I have shown?
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#6 User is offline   hatchett 

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Posted 2009-December-08, 16:07

Agree with JDONN both are penalty for me.
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#7 User is offline   wclass___ 

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Posted 2009-December-08, 16:10

Hi,

both are obvious penalties for me.

In the first one pass basically shows ''cards'', in 2nd you just want to keep option open to be able to double for penalty with 4.
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#8 User is offline   pooltuna 

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Posted 2009-December-08, 18:04

hatchett, on Dec 8 2009, 05:07 PM, said:

Agree with JDONN both are penalty for me.

WHAT!!! From what I have seen on these fora all doubles are either TO or protection!! Are you even allowed to use the word "penalty" and "double" in the same sentence? :)
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#9 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-December-08, 18:21

Yeah the first one is obv penalty. The 2nd one...... dunno? Guess it's cards and partner usually passes if balanced but can bid with like 3136 or whatever.
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#10 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-December-08, 18:26

I do agree that the first one will essentially never get pulled (unless responder made a negative double with spades and diamond support but not hearts?) but the second can easily be pulled if opener is short in hearts and thinks it's right.
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#11 User is offline   peachy 

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Posted 2009-December-09, 23:30

First is penalty, I don't think there can be any doubt about it. The second one suggests penalty unless opener's hand is very offensive (very unlikely since opener passed on his second turn to bid).
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#12 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2009-December-12, 10:34

The first is clearly penalty for me. The second I think is just cards without any clear direction, partner often passes though...
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