[DWM]

One of the books I have been reading, think it was competitive bidding in the 21st century, recommends overcalling with 4 card majors in certain situations.

I have been trying this on BBO and got some good results, however, I am not too sure if its because of my bidding or the opponents skill level. Other results and bidding sequences suggest that I should label myself as world class compared to some so called experts, but that is a different subject.

Just wonder what are other peoples thoughts about overcalling with a 4 card major in certain situations and if anybody has tried it did it give an advantage against reasonable or above opposition
.

[P_Marlowe]

Overcalling with a 4 card major makes sense.

Your partner needs to be aware, although if he plays reasonable
well, he should know anyway, that he should not compete to the
3 level with only 3 card support.

Of course if your suits get shorter, the suit quality should go up.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: We tried the Canape style advocated by Miles, but although we
still think it makes sense, gave it up.

[the hog]

We frequently overcall on 4 card suits. This needs to be based on partnership understanding. Also you need to pick the situation. I think overcalling 1C/D on KJxx Axx xxxx xxx is absolutely fine NV. I would not overcall if the opening had been 1H.
It depends on how much room you can take away from the opps, as well as suggesting a lead etc. Of course you need to play a more sophisticated system of raises of overcalls.

[helene_t]

IMO, partner should be able to raise based on the assumption that you have a 5-card suit. If opps don't compete, you probably won't end up in 3M in a 4-3 fit that often, but it could go:
(1m)-1♠-(4♥)-4♠).

Now 4-card overcall will usually include some length in opps suit (otherwise you could overcall another suit or dbl), so opps won't often be able to bid aggressively over your overcall, and if LHO does raise, partner will be short in their suit so a 4-3 fit will often be OK.

(1♦)-?
AJxx-AQ-xx-Kxxxx
is borderline for me, but I would rather overcall 1♠ than 2♣ or dbl. I might pass, though.

[Codo]

Funnily I would not choose 1 Spade with any of Rons or Helenes example hands.
I am more conservative then Ron and I love 2 club over 1 Diamond too much to bid 1 Spade with Helenes example hand. But make it AQxx,Ax,Kx,xxxxx and I try 1 Spade.

So the basic line is: You have a good and deep partnership understanding (like Ron and his partner) or you intend to bid 4 card majors with very good suits and as a solution for hands otherwise impossible to bid.

F.E.
(1♦) 1♠

with AKJx, xx,Txx,Axxx

So if partner raises, you can handle most 4-3 fits.

In my regular partnership we play it this way and it seems to be a gross winner compared to pass or defected 1 NT bids or doubles. Maybe the loose approach of Ron is even better, but I am too old to try it.

[mcphee]

I am not against o/c on 4, but I do not find an excuse to do so. Partner should expect 5+ and I would not consider responding with the idea the o/c was just 4. You o/c and fear a pre-emptive raise then don't. Naturally the position of the o/c should be considered.

[whereagles]

"competitive bidding in the 21st century" is a book by Marshall Miles, who is very well known for his 4-card major overcalls.

He doesn't recommend to do it all the time, though. He's more geared into situations like this:

(1♣) 1♠

on

KJTx
x
xxxx
Axxxx

i.e. a strong 4-card, shapely hand with a side suit. I think he'd probably steer away from doing it on Ron's hand, KJxx xxx Axx xxx.

[hrothgar]

I prefer 4 card major based opening styles
I'm just as happy with systems based on 4 card major overcalls.

[the hog]

Codo, on Dec 15 2009, 05:38 PM, said:

snipped

Maybe the loose approach of Ron is even better, but I am too old to try it.

Ha! Ich bin 58.
Anyway I will be in Munich on 23/24/25. PM me your Handi and i will give you a quick call. I don't think you are in Munich though, are you?

[Fluffy]

I haven't tried weak 4 card overcalls, I overcall with 4 cards when it is the only way to enter the bidding and I am too strong to be happy passing

[655321]

Yes, it is normal to make 4 card overcalls in some situations.

Perhaps you are 4-2 in the majors with an opening hand, and they open a minor. You can't make a takeout double with a doubleton in an unbid major, so (as long as your 4M is of reasonable quality) you would overcall. Also as mentioned earlier, length in the opened suit with a decent 4M might make a good overcall.

However, just because there are many cases where it is good bridge to overcall a 4 card Major, it does not mean that you should do it every time you have 4M and they open 1m. For example overcalling 1♠ on Hog's hand KJxx Axx xxx(x) xxx is pretty awful bridge IMO.

[kenberg]

My thinking runs along the lines of Helene and McPhee: I do it but I will have a hand where partner can assume five and we are likely to be fine.

I do it when my hand is good enough that passing looks awful to me and my four card suit looks pretty good. I would pass, for examle, on the hand you posted earlier on defending 4H


AQTx
x
Kxx
xxxxx

If we belong in a spade contract we may well find it without me jumping in right away. As it happened, your spade overcall got your partner off to the right lead here, but still it's just too light for my taste. If the diamonds were AQx then I would hate to pass and would probably come in with 1S.


I think this is a situation with two lines of thinking. One is suitable for occasional partners, just bid on 4 when you want to get in and there is no reasonable alternative. The other approach is to take someone like Marshal Miles seriously, get a partner who agrees, and work it through together. My way, you won't very often be overcalling on 4. Miles' way, more often you will. But Miles' way, partner needs to be in on the joke.

[blackshoe]

Mike Lawrence had a good write up on four card overcalls in The Complete Book on Overcalls. They work well if you don't go nuts.

[Vilgan]

I don't need "points" to overcall a 4 card suit other than our minimum overcall amount, but I do promise 3 of the top 5. Has worked out very well. I would not usually overcall on KJxx or AJxx as mentioned above, unless I had some other reason for bidding.. like too many points to want to pass and no other good bid.

[andy_h]

mcphee, on Dec 15 2009, 11:52 PM, said:

I am not against o/c on 4, but I do not find an excuse to do so.

I agree with this. Some hands just look right for bidding it, so I guess one's preferred style comes with experience.

[jjbrr]

andy_h, on Dec 15 2009, 10:51 AM, said:

mcphee, on Dec 15 2009, 11:52 PM, said:

I am not against o/c on 4, but I do not find an excuse to do so.

I agree with this. Some hands just look right for bidding it, so I guess one's preferred style comes with experience.

This entirely. Don't look for hands where you should overcall 4-card suits. When you get one, it will be pretty obvious that you need to bid but you don't have the perfect hand for it (and do not think i mean balanced opening hands unsuitable for double. i mean generally unbalanced but not always, generally concentrated values in the suit but not always, and most often a vulnerability that makes the bid not too dangerous). A lot of it is very situational, eg who the opponents are, what the state of the event is, what you hope to accomplish, etc.

A litmus test i sometimes use is "how will i feel if partner makes a weak jump raise in this suit? What if he raises to 4?"

[jeffford76]

helene_t, on Dec 15 2009, 02:51 AM, said:

IMO, partner should be able to raise based on the assumption that you have a 5-card suit. If opps don't compete, you probably won't end up in 3M in a 4-3 fit that often, but it could go:
(1m)-1♠-(4♥)-4♠).

This isn't always a bad thing, though. Last time I had this auction on a 4-3 fit, both opponents had 3, and so they both thought the 5 level was safe.

[cherdanno]

jjbrr, on Dec 15 2009, 11:00 AM, said:

A litmus test i sometimes use is "how will i feel if partner makes a weak jump raise in this suit? What if he raises to 4?"

Mine is similar - if partner makes a mixed raise, I should expect to make 3M. Also, of course you need a good suit.
I think "takeout double strength, but wrong shape, and a very good 4-card major suit" would be another good definition.

And yes, this means I disagree with all the examples in this thread except Marlowe's.

[Phil]

Marshall is famous for four card overcalls. Garozzo / Reisig can be seen making a lot of these calls too. I'm talking about about four card suits at the one level where the rest of us would require a five card suit. Stuff like AQxx xx xxx Kxxx for instance.

Agree with Cherdanno and some of the others about when a four card overcall should be made. This would be the mainstream approach I think.

I have a partner who likes to make four card overcalls at the 2 level if he has length in his RHO's suit. Usually this is a bad idea, but I think in 1992 he tried this and it worked, so he continues to do it.

[DWM]

Looks like I better let my partner know so I don't get too many strange looks.

With regards to the hand quality I take it there is a reasonable difference between the minimum hands for

p - (1♣) - 1♠

and

(1♣) - 1♠

The things I have looked for to make such a bid is

Overcalling strength
AJTx/KQxx or better in the suit
hand not suitable for take out double

I have also used 1♠ as a mini preempt oposite a passed hand and this seems to work quite well as often partner will support me to the two level and give oposition the difficult 3 level choices. That being said once I play against more regular pairings who use things like lebenshol the advantage is not as much, but still fun getting in the way.