[inquiry]

Scoring: IMP

No opponent bidding.

East West
1♦     1♠
2♦     3♣
3♥     5♦
All Pass

---

For the record, this hand was played at 49 Tables, once in 6♦, once in 7♦x, 20 times in 3NT, 12 times in 5♦, the rest in part-scores, so maybe getting to "only" 5♦ isn't that bad, as 3NT is doomed on a natural spade lead.

[suokko]

I think west undervalued his void of ♠ a bit too much. I blame the system not being able to start with forcing ♦ raise

In my options blame goes E: 0% W: 10% system: 40% cards: 50% (unless if there was systematic forcing raise possible with 4M, then east takes a lot blame for not using it.)

But I agree that biding 5♦ is already good enough.

PS. 1♦-2♣(inv+ ♣ or ♦);
2♥(any strength)-2♠(relay bal or ♦ or ♥);
3♦ (6-4)-3♥(agrees ♦);
3♠(short ♠ minimun)-4♣(cue);
4♠(ERKC)- and you can guess the rest. 6♦ is the most likely contract.
System is based on Garozzo's "natural" 2/1 system.

[mike777]

West.....


start off with a D raise, gf or in my case inv......



1d=2s(limit raise, unbalanced very often).


Be not afraid east has xxx in D.

[mikeh]

Sorry, but I can't help but think that anyone who advocates an immediate diamond raise is allowing their wire on the board to influence their views.

Deal East some random 4=3=4=2 or 4=4=3=2 or 4=2=4=3, and let's all drive to 3N or 5♦, shall we?

Make East AKJx Jxx Axxx xx and let's play ATB for reaching either 3N or 5♦, shall we? Wanna bet we see ANY votes for bypassing spades then?

[suokko]

mikeh, on Dec 3 2009, 07:30 AM, said:

Sorry, but I can't help but think that anyone who advocates an immediate diamond raise is allowing their wire on the board to influence their views.

Deal East some random 4=3=4=2 or 4=4=3=2 or 4=2=4=3, and let's all drive to 3N or 5♦, shall we?

Make East AKJx Jxx Axxx xx and let's play ATB for reaching either 3N or 5♦, shall we? Wanna bet we see ANY votes for bypassing spades then?

Of course system allows finding 4-4 major fits after supporting ♦ first. That is what systems are about. This kind of systems adds a lot of complexity to simple hands but allow more accurate slam biding when there is some special hands.
If you want to see what kind of system I'm thinking you can download Ambra notes from Daniel's system page.

That why I wouldn't blame anyone for not supporting immediately because not many play that kind of systems.

[Phil]

Much easier if West can make a forcing ♦ raise after 2♦.

5♦ is unnecessary since 3♣ set up a GF. 4 is clear especially with the ♠xxxx appearing to face shorter and shorter spades as the auction progressed.

[mike777]

I think with the mikeh hand the bidding might go:



1d=2s
3s=4s?


2s=solid invite, unbal often.(nothing about spades)
3s spade values, deny h values.
4s? not sure......I think i would just bid 5d otherwise.


In any event blame me pard if i bid KQJx before xxxx

[Free]

Phil, on Dec 3 2009, 07:14 AM, said:

Much easier if West can make a forcing ♦ raise after 2♦.

5♦ is unnecessary since 3♣ set up a GF. 4 is clear especially with the ♠xxxx appearing to face shorter and shorter spades as the auction progressed.

I agree, you can easily bid 4♦ and show slam interest.

[whereagles]

inquiry, on Dec 3 2009, 01:59 AM, said:

maybe getting to "only" 5♦ isn't that bad, as 3NT is doomed on a natural spade lead.

Agree lol.

♠ 9732
♥ K
♦ KQJ7
♣ KJ97

♠ --
♥ A643
♦ A98532
♣ AT2

As for my auction, maybe

1♦ 1♠
2♦ 2♥
2NT 3♦
4♠ 6♦

2♥ = artificial, 3rd suit forcing (for 1 round)
2NT = min, may have 4 hearts
3♦ = forcing now, on fast arrival grounds
4♠ = doh!
6♦ = ok, a bit pessimistic. Bid 4NT+grand if you're feeling lucky

[P_Marlowe]

#1 1D, 1S and 2D are clear
#2 3C? Sry, how about 2H, opener could still hold a 4 card
heart suit, 3C is not an option, and 2H it is even, if 2H
does not show hearts, but responder should investigate
a possible hear fit.
The alternative to 2H is 4D, which is certainly GF.
And since opener does not have 4 spades, responder knowes,
that the partnership has a 6-4 diamond fit, so I may be willing
to listen to reason, why throwing away a possible 4-4 heart fit
is sensible.
You wont convince me, but I am patient, and I will seem to be
listening.
#3 3H is fine
#4 5D? Sry, you are playing MP, If you dont want to play 3NT,
than at least you have no trouble investigating 6D, because
you planned to by pass 3NT anyway.
If you dont want to by pass 3NT, than bid it, but 5D is neither
fish nor pork.

The vote goes 2:0 to responder, and 2 of 3 bids by responder are
worth 100%.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

geez you guys make this complicated if not d raise...sigh


KQJx


xxxx

[Codo]

5 ♦ was horrible. I had bid 4 diamond and take it from there. Rest of the auction was fine.

[mike777]

P_Marlowe, on Dec 3 2009, 04:22 AM, said:

#1 1D,  1S and 2D are clear

NO









#2 3C? Sry, how about 2H, opener could still hold a 4 card
    heart suit, 3C is not an option, and 2H it is even, if 2H
    does not show hearts, but responder should investigate
    a possible hear fit.
    The alternative to 2H is 4D, which is certainly GF.
    And since opener does not have 4 spades, responder knowes,
    that the partnership has a 6-4 diamond fit, so I may be willing
    to listen to reason, why throwing away a possible 4-4 heart fit
    is sensible.
    You wont convince me, but I am patient, and I will seem to be
    listening.
#3 3H is fine
#4 5D? Sry, you are playing MP, If you dont want to play 3NT,
    than at least you have no trouble investigating 6D, because
    you planned to by pass 3NT anyway.
    If you dont want to by pass 3NT, than bid it, but 5D is neither
    fish nor pork.

The vote goes 2:0 to responder, and 2 of 3 bids by responder are
worth 100%.

With kind regards
Marlowe

NO

I just told you not clear....

[kenrexford]

1♦-2♣(GF, artificial, no 5-card major)
2♦(hearts)-3♦(fit for diamonds)
3♥(probe)-4♣(cue, no spade control)

At this point, one of them takes over, depending on who is most aggressive, maybe with pushing back and forth.

[dellache]

In the system I play (it includes some components derived from ambra) we would bid like this:
1D 4+d unbal
1H relay
2H 4+h 11-14
2N relay shape
3S 0463
4C agrees D
4H 6 loosers 3 keycards
Now South is known to have void Axxx Axxxxx Axx and we don't care about the possible Heart Jack.
6D

[suokko]

I don't see any extras in east hand to suggest slam here. Singleton ♥K is not great value neither east holds any aces. Only good stuff is that you have 4th trump for support and _possible_ working shortness in spades. I think inviting slam here would easily drive you to one when opener has good hand like: Ax AQxx Axxxxxx x. In my option aceless marmick with just minimum game forcing values is never worth 4♦ bid. In actual biding sequence question is if opener knows 3-suited nature of partner's hand. If there is doubt about short ♥ then it is not clear to raise slam here but it it is known then opener with 4 first round controls and 6-4 should strongly consider raising to slam.

Of course this is about partnership agreement how do you treat jumps to game in GF auction but if you don't do it with this east hand then you probably have some very strict rules about them. Strict rules are good for preemptive bids. but do they ever come if rules are too strict?

But with random partner without much agreements I would bid exactly same with east and west hand until 5♦ which I would probably raise to 6 with west hand. (I rate my self as very optimistic bider so I know that action might even be in losing side already)