[rogerclee]

Scoring: IMP

---

(P) - P - (1♦) - X
(2N) - 3♥ - (P) - 4♥
(P) - P - (X) - AP

-800

1♦ was always unbalanced, 2N was a strong diamond raise.

[OleBerg]

rogerclee, on Nov 24 2009, 01:17 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

(P) - P - (1♦) - X
(2N) - 3♥ - (P) - 4♥
(P) - P - (X) - AP

-800

1♦ was always unbalanced, 2N was a strong diamond raise.

100% to North's pusher.

[effervesce]

Agree 100% north. 4441's and 5440's don't usually play as well as they look, and he has basically got a minimum takeout double.

[quiddity]

Something is wrong with the diagram. Was East dealer?

[rogerclee]

quiddity, on Nov 23 2009, 05:00 PM, said:

Something is wrong with the diagram. Was East dealer?

Yes, fixed.

[jdonn]

Both. Probably north more.

[pooltuna]

rogerclee, on Nov 23 2009, 06:17 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

(P) - P - (1♦) - X
(2N) - 3♥ - (P) - 4♥
(P) - P - (X) - AP

-800

1♦ was always unbalanced, 2N was a strong diamond raise.

equally at fault ....you can't both overbid your hands

[655321]

Both perhaps, but (unlike ATB 1 ) I have a lot of sympathy.

3♥ might be too much, but I would probably bid 3♥ too. Also opponent's system (unbalanced 1♦) might mean they are 100% guaranteeing an eight card fit - i.e. we know partner is void, so almost certainly has 4 hearts.

And 4♥ looks like too much, but North was probably hoping for a 5 card heart suit - something like Kx Axxxx xxxx xx makes 4♥ a decent contract. Maybe this is an argument against the 3♥ bid - that North might play South for a 5 card suit.

Anyway, I don't think anyone did anything really terrible here.

[pooltuna]

655321, on Nov 23 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

Both perhaps, but (unlike ATB 1 ) I have a lot of sympathy.

3♥ might be too much, but I would probably bid 3♥ too. Also opponent's system (unbalanced 1♦) might mean they are 100% guaranteeing an eight card fit - i.e. we know partner is void, so almost certainly has 4 hearts.

And 4♥ looks like too much, but North was probably hoping for a 5 card heart suit - something like Kx Axxxx xxxx xx makes 4♥ a decent contract. Maybe this is an argument against the 3♥ bid - that North might play South for a 5 card suit.

Anyway, I don't think anyone did anything really terrible here.

hmmm....do you often go for 800 vs a part score?

[Jlall]

655321, on Nov 23 2009, 09:34 PM, said:

Both perhaps, but (unlike ATB 1 ) I have a lot of sympathy.

3♥ might be too much, but I would probably bid 3♥ too. Also opponent's system (unbalanced 1♦) might mean they are 100% guaranteeing an eight card fit - i.e. we know partner is void, so almost certainly has 4 hearts.

And 4♥ looks like too much, but North was probably hoping for a 5 card heart suit - something like Kx Axxxx xxxx xx makes 4♥ a decent contract. Maybe this is an argument against the 3♥ bid - that North might play South for a 5 card suit.

Anyway, I don't think anyone did anything really terrible here.

I told Clee I would duplicate both actions fwiw. I really think 3H is a must though, passing and then bidding 3H later should just be a worse hand than this imo.

4H is probably too much but I would bid it too. Even when it can't make, it puts big pressure on them, and they usually bid 5D on this type of auction imo. And as you said, its a great dummy opposite a five card heart suit. It seems like you have a bunch of ways to win with this bid, as usual.

I guess I always like to bid game in this type of auction where it's competitive and both sides have a fit and have shown some game interest and there is shape all around. Nobody ever knows if they can double or what can make, and people generally just take out insurance and bid over it.

It seems unlucky that you hit partner with 5 diamonds and no heart honors and no fifth heart, so it's both easy to double you AND easy to beat you a lot. This is a really unlikely scenario I think.

[subvert]

mostly South!His hand is not an immediate 3H after 2nt especially when vul; 3H balance is ok.

[Codo]

I would blame both to 100 % as lousy overbidders and north as to be worse then his partner.

Make the south hand xx, Akxx,xxxxx,xx and I would understand a 3 Heart bid. But here you know that partner has strong hearts and has to ruff your diamonds with them or he has weak hearts too and they have the high ones.
Both scenarios are scary.

[gnasher]

655321, on Nov 24 2009, 03:34 AM, said:

Kx Axxxx xxxx xx makes 4♥ a decent contract

How are you going to play it on a diamond lead?

[655321]

gnasher, on Nov 24 2009, 04:58 AM, said:

655321, on Nov 24 2009, 03:34 AM, said:

Kx Axxxx xxxx xx makes 4♥ a decent contract

How are you going to play it on a diamond lead?

OK, when I posted that example I was thinking that at worst 4♥ would be on 2-2 trumps, but it is true there is work to do.

I will ruff the diamond and start clubs. When they win the ♣A, they might cash their spade, which will make the ♠K an entry to play hearts up. Otherwise if they continue diamonds I ruff. Now four rounds of clubs (discarding spades) doesn't quite work - they ruff the fourth round and return a trump. So instead I will play the ♠Q (or perhaps a low spade if East is marked with the Ace), which they have to win. Now I think there is enough time to do everything if suits break (3 ruffs, 1 spade, 2 clubs and 4 trumps).

[billw55]

North wins the overbidding contest, going overboard by an ace, while south only a queen.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 X, is ok
#2 3H, is ok as well, as long as p knowes, that you go in with
those values.
Given your diamond length, you can pass, if p has more than
a min for his call, we will come to live a 2nd time
#3 4H is ..., sry p passed as opener, he does not have a weak
two, I am min for my previous call, pass is clear cut.

I make it 66% for the 4H call, 33% for the 3H call, 1% for the lord.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I like to put high pressure on the opponents, but there is a limit,
at one point high pressure does not hurt them anymore.

[pooltuna]

rogerclee, on Nov 23 2009, 06:17 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

(P) - P - (1♦) - X
(2N) - 3♥ - (P) - 4♥
(P) - P - (X) - AP

-800

1♦ was always unbalanced, 2N was a strong diamond raise.

Should south have been able to construct a probable hand layout from the "unbalanced ♦ opening", the failure of West to use an XX (curious how the EW system uses it if not standard), and the subtle meanings of the Jordan call (like can it contain a 4 card major) IMO not only was North's TOX a misbid his failure to overcall 1♠ tends to deny 9 major suit cards. C'mon Ken I know you are or were an unbalanced ♦ advocate.

[Phil]

Unfortunate hand, but the signs are everywhere that bad splits exist and partner may have a very light TOx.

The 'unbalanced' diamond is very telling. If we have 5 diamonds, how do you think they are splitting on this auction? 4-4 is a lock. And when LHO has four diamonds, I think its a certainty LHO is 4441.

I don't think North can make the same inference, but I think 4♥ is an overbid. Is there a possible hand that wouldn't bid 4♥ on a 0♦(445)? If there is is one, it's certainly this one.

I see nothing wrong with passing 2N with South. The auction cannot get out of control, and 3♥ over 3♦ is a good characterization.

Obviously South can determine partner might be a little light for the TOx, but it seems to me both went a little overboard.