[jerryblu]

If opener has a 5422 hand like KTxx, AQJxx, AQ, AQ
I believe he will usually open 2NT. Maybe not if the two minor doubletons are not robust, but reversing with this hand could get messy. And suppose the hand is actually AKxx, AQJxx, AQ, Ax
in which case I think everyone would open 2C and rebid 2NT.

With that as preliminary, consider this problem

The bidding with one of those hands goes
2NT-3C
3H ---- so opener has 5H.
If responder has 2 hearts and 4 spades, how does he check for a 4-4 Spade fit without bypassing 3NT? I think the only way is for responder to bid 3S in which case he may wind up declaring. That may not be best, but it beats losing the 4-4 fit.

It is even harder if opener's hand has 5Spades and 4 Hearts. There is no way to find the 4-4 heart fit below 3NT after opener replies 3S to the 3C query.

The only way around the second problem that I can think of is that when opener has exactly 5S&4H, that he respond 4C to the 3C inquiry, artificially describing this specific holding exactly. Responder can then transfer to the correct contract or bid 4NT to play. The (big) disadvantage here is that you will be a level higher having bypassed 3NT. The alternative is to let Opener reply 3S and forget about the 4-4 heart fits. I'm not sure which would be better.

Am I missing some easy solution?

Jerry

[kenrexford]

Don't open 2NT with 4522 or 5422 shape. That makes it easy.

[jerryblu]

So open 1H with AKxx, AQJxx, AQ, Ax ???

[aguahombre]

Put a heart next to the diamond queen and respond 3D

[kenrexford]

jerryblu, on Nov 22 2009, 11:21 PM, said:

So open 1H with AKxx, AQJxx, AQ, Ax ???

I think you have other options.

For example, let's assume that you are not playing Kokish. You could opt to open 2♣ and then rebid 2♥ is partner bids 2♦. If playing Kokish, you could open 2♣, rebid 2♥, and then bid 3♠.

If there is a hand where you insist on bidding this as a balanced hand, then treat it as a balanced hand. If partner bids Puppet Stayman, then make the call that fits your hand best, calling the an exception. Either show 4-4 or show the fifth heart, and then live with the consequences.

That said, if you just must have a way to handle 4522 (specifically), as that might be the more difficult hand, then I suppose there might be a solution.

Personally, I like Muppet Stayman best, because it handles more of the frequent problems that you see:

3♣ asks for Opener's shape. Opener bids:

3NT = 4-4 majors
3♠ = five spades
3♥ = 4-5 hearts (3♠ then asks how many hearts, 3NT = 4, other = 5)
3♦ = 2-3♥/2-4♠

After 3♦, Responder can bid 3♥ to ask for the spade length (3NT=2, 3♠=3, 4any=4) or 3♠ to ask for the heart length (3NT=2, 4any=3).

Problem hands for Responder? 5♠/3♥ (cannot handle 3♥ call -- Opener could be 4♥/2♠ or 4♥/3♠) With that, transfer (3♥); Opener rejects transfer (3NT) with 2♠/5♥.

Other problem hand? 5♥/4♠ -- cannot handle 3♦ response. Easy -- transfer and then bids 3♠.

Can we jump in an option for 5♥/4♠? Entry into four-level is an option, but then Responder could not bid Puppet with 3♠/0-2♥, which could be bad. Could also handle 5♠/4♥ (one bid 4♣, other 4♦), but lose another "can't do" pattern (reverse pattern) and cannot re-transfer in that additional event.

If I had do do this, I'd probably limit this to when 4♠/5♥, I suppose.

But, perhaps a deeper solution?

2♣-P-2♦-P-
2♥(artificial)-P-2♠-P-
3♣ = hearts and a minor (3♦ asks which)
3♦ = 5+♥/4+♠, unbalanced
3♥ = 6♥
3♠ = 4522 specifically, big hand
3NT = 4522 minimum

Something like that? In other words, maybe get the 4522 out of 2NT and just describe it. Heck, maybe even give up 2♣...3♥ for that specific pattern.

[blackshoe]

Romex treats all 5422s as unbalanced, so will not bid NT naturally with these hands. The first one opens 1NT (artificial) and rebids 2D (Stayman) over 2C (2C just shows 0-5 hcp). The second opens 2C and rebids 2H over 2D (2H is forcing) and then bids spades.

[OleBerg]

jerryblu, on Nov 23 2009, 04:07 AM, said:

Am I missing some easy solution?

Jerry

3NT = Four spades.
3♠ = Whatever you need.

[helene_t]

One pair at our club play a PS version that caters to alle the 5-4 major combinations on both sides. In particular
2NT-3♣
3♦*
does not promise a 4-card major. That frees the 3NT rebid:
2NT-3♣
3NT*
shows 5422.

I don't really care for it but it's playable.

[gwnn]

this is a slippery slope, next thing we'll see is how to bid 5-5 in the minors or 6-4 in the majors. etc. but maybe those threads will be opened by psychologically harmed gib's who have seen human 2NT bids in robot indys

[Blue Uriah]

If you're willing to lose the ability to bail out to 3M through transfers, you can play Gerry. There's a lot of crap in the linked page, but the 3♣ and 3♦ responses do let you untangle all the major suit combinations.

Or just play 4-card Stayman. That solves all your problems nicely. How often do you actually hold a 3154, bid 3♣, hear partner respond 3♠ and make 4♠ when 3NT would have gone down? Puppet Stayman always seems like it's aiming for a very small target to me.

[hanp]

I have never opened 2NT with 9 cards in the majors. Even though I can imagine hands where I would, it seems wrong to build a system with these hands in mind.

[ONEferBRID]

Just when I learned of a "Puppet" solution to the problem when Responder holds 5s/4h, you come up with the problem when Opener holds a 5/4 or 4/5.

Looks like another reason ( of a long list previously discussed here and elsewhere ) NOT to play Puppet.

[mich-b]

ONEferBRID, on Nov 23 2009, 06:54 AM, said:

Looks like another reason ( of a long list previously discussed here and elsewhere  ) NOT to play Puppet.

Does that imply that normal stayman gives you the tools to check if 2NT opener is 5-4 in the majors?

[pooltuna]

mich-b, on Nov 23 2009, 09:29 AM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Nov 23 2009, 06:54 AM, said:

Looks like another reason ( of a long list previously discussed here and elsewhere  ) NOT to play Puppet.

Does that imply that normal stayman gives you the tools to check if 2NT opener is 5-4 in the majors?

As long as responder has a 4 card major I fail to see the difficulties as the 2NT opener can both show the 5 carder then revert to the 4 carder over 3NT

[helene_t]

Yeah but then the PS players can also just describe 54 as if it was 44. Same thing.

[jdonn]

pooltuna, on Nov 23 2009, 10:01 AM, said:

mich-b, on Nov 23 2009, 09:29 AM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Nov 23 2009, 06:54 AM, said:

Looks like another reason ( of a long list previously discussed here and elsewhere  ) NOT to play Puppet.

Does that imply that normal stayman gives you the tools to check if 2NT opener is 5-4 in the majors?

As long as responder has a 4 card major I fail to see the difficulties as the 2NT opener can both show the 5 carder then revert to the 4 carder over 3NT

The "problem" is responder is something like 3136 and was looking for a 5 card spade suit. In any case, showing 4-5 in the majors after showing a balanced hand is not on my priority list.

[jerryblu]

I really do appreciate this discussion. As always, the question with these bidding structures is one of balance- of mind boggling complexity versus capability. The more epicycles we devise the more we can do and the less we will remember.

And as several have commented (and I agree), it is a small target in general, and in particular, the 4522 or 5422 hands are even less of a target. We'll need this once in 500 deals maybe.

So thanks, and I'll see whether I want to pursue this in complex or simplified form.

Jerry Blumenthal
jerryblu on bbo

[pooltuna]

jdonn, on Nov 23 2009, 10:28 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Nov 23 2009, 10:01 AM, said:

mich-b, on Nov 23 2009, 09:29 AM, said:

ONEferBRID, on Nov 23 2009, 06:54 AM, said:

Looks like another reason ( of a long list previously discussed here and elsewhere  ) NOT to play Puppet.

Does that imply that normal stayman gives you the tools to check if 2NT opener is 5-4 in the majors?

As long as responder has a 4 card major I fail to see the difficulties as the 2NT opener can both show the 5 carder then revert to the 4 carder over 3NT

The "problem" is responder is something like 3136 and was looking for a 5 card spade suit. In any case, showing 4-5 in the majors after showing a balanced hand is not on my priority list.

not to big on mine either since when I start getting in the 27-29 HCP total side assets 3NT probably plays equal or better to an 8 card major fit

[aguahombre]

helene_t, on Nov 23 2009, 08:04 AM, said:

Yeah but then the PS players can also just describe 54 as if it was 44. Same thing.

Yep, it's you and me, kid.
But that takes all the fun out of complicating things.