[kfay]

Scoring: IMP

1♠-2♦
3♠-?

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Hidden:

Spoiler

if you bid 4♣ partner bids 4!s!!???

[Jlall]

You don't specify, but can I assume you play 2/1 and 3S shows a solid suit?

[kfay]

Jlall, on Nov 22 2009, 06:28 PM, said:

You don't specify, but can I assume you play 2/1 and 3S shows a solid suit?

Yes, sorry.

[Jlall]

kfay, on Nov 22 2009, 06:30 PM, said:

Jlall, on Nov 22 2009, 06:28 PM, said:

You don't specify, but can I assume you play 2/1 and 3S shows a solid suit?

Yes, sorry.

Any agreement on if 3S also shows extras also or can it just be a solid suit with not much else

[Jlall]

My plan is just to bid 4N over 3S. I will go to 7N if we have them all obviously. If we have only 2, I will bid 6D.


If partner just had solid spades and out I think he might just open 4S, so I am going to hope he has solid spades and at least 1 side Q, preferably both side queens or the HK obv. If he has the HK we have no problems. If he has no HK then:

If he has the CQ we will need to ditch our heart on the spade. If he has the HQ and no CQ then maybe we will be able to ruff a club if partner has a doubleton club (reasonably likely). Alternatively maybe they'll lead a heart from the king and the queen will win.

The biggest problem with this plan is that if partner doesn't have the CQ they will be able to kill our dummy on a spade lead. An expert opponent might well find this lead also. But again, we can fall back on being able to ruff a club, or barring that being able to hook a heart if partner has QJ, or barring that being able to hook a club if partner has JT... The same problem arises on a club lead if we knock out the DA and they can shift effectively to a spade.

The other big problem is if partner has EIGHT spades we might end up needing 2-2 spades.

I do not cuebid first becuase I want to maximize the chance I get a favorable lead (like a club, possibly away from the queen, when partner has the jack!).

[kfay]

Jlall, on Nov 22 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

My plan is just to bid 4N over 3S. I will go to 7N if we have them all obviously. If we have only 2, I will bid 6D.

OK so you think that we can still play 6♦ after this start. I understand that normally a bid of 6♦ after a 2♦ bid would be a suggestion to play or just to play, but after 3♠?

[Jlall]

kfay, on Nov 22 2009, 07:03 PM, said:

Jlall, on Nov 22 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

My plan is just to bid 4N over 3S. I will go to 7N if we have them all obviously. If we have only 2, I will bid 6D.

OK so you think that we can still play 6♦ after this start. I understand that normally a bid of 6♦ after a 2♦ bid would be a suggestion to play or just to play, but after 3♠?

Sure, we can always play in my suit in slam. Sometimes we might need to play there because:

1) I could have 9, 10, 11, or 12 diamonds.
2) My diamonds might be more solid than partner's spades (3S shows a solid suit but we can forgive him for having AKQTxxx sometimes). In that case diamonds might need to be trumps even if I have as few as 6 diamonds (we can ruff out the spades etc).
3) Sometimes we might need to rightside the contract while still having a trump suit, so we might need to play diamonds for that reason.
4) We might be void in spades with a ruffing values somewhere else, like a stiff heart, and in spades we have no trumps to ruff hearts, but in diamonds we can.
5) Partner might be void in diamonds in which case diamonds will often need to be trumps (similarly if we are void in spades, spades might need to be trumps).
6) We might have our actual diamond holding and be down in 6S on a diamond ruff if partner has 2 diamonds, but we won't go down on a spade ruff ever.

etc etc etc etc.

More to the point, I have made one bid and it was diamonds and I'm still unlimited, and they might well be the best trump suit, so playing a system that precludes us from playing diamonds seems realllllly bad! I don't think you should ever be precluded from playing a slam in a suit that you've shown already, almost regardless of the auction. This doesn't apply at the GAME level of course, but slams are different.

[JanM]

kfay, on Nov 22 2009, 05:03 PM, said:

Jlall, on Nov 22 2009, 06:50 PM, said:

My plan is just to bid 4N over 3S. I will go to 7N if we have them all obviously. If we have only 2, I will bid 6D.

OK so you think that we can still play 6♦ after this start. I understand that normally a bid of 6♦ after a 2♦ bid would be a suggestion to play or just to play, but after 3♠?

I wouldn't be worried about being able to play diamonds, but I would worry about whether 4NT was Keycard for spades or diamonds. Partner's jump "agreed" spades for Keycard, but I made a 2/1 and then bid 4NT at my next opportunity.

My main concern would be whether partner and I are on firm ground about this, since as long as we are, and given that 3♠ showed a solid suit, we need 3 spade keycards for the grand. If partner shows 2, am I confident that's the AK of spades and not the A of spades, A of diamonds?

In both of my serious partnerships, I have pretty complete agreements about which suit is key and on this auction it's spades (4NT is keycard in 2/1 bidder's suit only after a minimum rebid by opener, and one partner can "agree" a suit by showing a solid suit). But I'd still worry .

[Jlall]

JanM, on Nov 22 2009, 07:38 PM, said:

In both of my serious partnerships, I have pretty complete agreements about which suit is key and on this auction it's spades (4NT is keycard in 2/1 bidder's suit only after a minimum rebid by opener, and one partner can "agree" a suit by showing a solid suit). But I'd still worry .

Hi Jan, yes if that was a concern with your partner it would be risky to bid 4N since as you say, you wouldn't know what they were showing if they showed 2. That being said, I would generally feel pretty confident an expert partner would take it as keycard for spades. Spades was the last suit bid, and I think generally when partner shows a solid major they have set trumps unless I later bid my suit again.

There is something to be said for safety playing it if you're not sure, and bidding 4C first after which 4N will obviously be keycard for spades. Whether or not it's worth it to safety play to avoid the confusion and increase the chances that they find a killing non club lead depends on how likely it is you think that you will be on different wavelengths after a direct 4N I guess. It is hard to make this determination on a forum when we don't know who our partner is