[kgr]

Scoring: IMP

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2♦!-(Pas)-2♠!-(3♣)
3♦
 
2♦=multi
2♠=preempt or invite for ♥
 
(Our multi also contains a GF in minor, but partner will not take 3♦ as GF. You can be sure of that).

[gwnn]

shouldnt 3♦ be a good 3♥ bid if you don't want it to show the GF hand with diamonds? I just don't see why it should show SPADES, out of all majors to show, and diamonds, and WEAK.

I give it a 10, because I understand the urge of showing 6-5, but I will have to round it off to 0. Anyway 2♦ was the first bad bid, you may bid 1♠ or 3♠ if you want (or 3♥ in kgr system?) or 4♠ if you are a little drunk. not saying you're a drunkard, just talking from experience.

[kgr]

gwnn, on Nov 22 2009, 01:51 PM, said:

shouldnt 3♦ be a good 3♥ bid if you don't want it to show the GF hand with diamonds? I just don't see why it should show SPADES, out of all majors to show, and diamonds, and WEAK.

Yes, maybe....(The more I think about it the less I'm sure that is shows a waek two-suiter).
But for others: you can suppose that 3D shows a weak S/D two-suiter.

[Jlall]

We also have double available to show something.

I would think X= a 2S bid with extra offense that wants to bid (aka this hand), 3D= a good 3H bid, 3H=bad 3H bid. But I don't play multi.

[paca1987]

I would open 1♠, but im just an aggro south american player.
Playing Multi you have to play stolen bid i suppose, Doubling 3♣ cant be penalty, just have to be something else.
As Justin said, Playing X as a good 2♠ bid and 3♦ as a good 2♥ bid sounds like a good idea.

[gwnn]

i think x should be strong 2 in clubs and 3♦ strong 2 in diamonds to be honest. i already wasted a lot of space, i'd like to show my hand.

[helene_t]

I gave it 25, I could understand a beginner might think that 3♥ shows hearts and 3♦ shows this hand.

I would give the 2♦ opening a 0, though, it's a very bad bid even for a beginner.

[kgr]

My question was more about bidding 3D then about what it should mean.
Let me rephrase the question.
You have the explicit agreement with your partner that 3♦ now shows a 6c♠ and a 5c♦ and less then opening values. Do you bid 3♦ or is it too risky Vul at IMPs?

[gnasher]

kgr, on Nov 22 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

You have the explicit agreement with your partner that 3♦ now shows a 6c♠ and a 5c♦ and less then opening values. Do you bid 3♦ or is it too risky Vul at IMPs?

With that agreement, it's clear to bid 3♦.

(Answering the questions that you didn't ask: I'd have opened 1♠, and I'd never have the agreement that 3♦ showed spades.)

[kgr]

gnasher, on Nov 23 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

kgr, on Nov 22 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

You have the explicit agreement with your partner that 3♦ now shows a 6c♠ and a 5c♦ and less then opening values. Do you bid 3♦ or is it too risky Vul at IMPs?

With that agreement, it's clear to bid 3♦.

To be more clear: partner's 2♠ bid denied 3c♠. Otherwise he would have bid 3♥/3♠. Seems like 3♦ is hoping for a ♦ fit?

[Jlall]

kgr, on Nov 22 2009, 05:04 PM, said:

My question was more about bidding 3D then about what it should mean.
Let me rephrase the question.
You have the explicit agreement with your partner that 3♦ now shows a 6c♠ and a 5c♦ and less then opening values. Do you bid 3♦ or is it too risky Vul at IMPs?

Yes obviously if 3D shows 6-5 then bid that.

[gwnn]

It is like you gave us

AJx
Qxx
Kx
AKQxx

and the bidding had gone

1NT-3S-p-p
3NT

and told us that 3NT shows a maximum NT bid with a spade stop. well yea in a way 3NT is the only way we can save the board now that we misdescribed the hand earlier. prior bidding is extremely relevant when we want to decide what to do now.

my example was somewhat exaggerated but not as much as it first looks.

edit: Anyway if you have the agreement that you may open 2♦ with this hand (it is not too strong) and 3♦ shows 6S and 5D, well what other hand would use that agreement if not this one? If you think 3♦ might be too risky with this hand, maybe this agreement isn't very optimal?

[kgr]

Scoring: IMP

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Thanks all for the answers.
2♦!-2♠!-(3♣)
3♦-All Pass
Lucky that opps didn't DBl and could make 3NT.

[Jlall]

kgr, on Nov 22 2009, 05:24 PM, said:

gnasher, on Nov 23 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

kgr, on Nov 22 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

You have the explicit agreement with your partner that 3♦ now shows a 6c♠ and a 5c♦ and less then opening values. Do you bid 3♦ or is it too risky Vul at IMPs?

With that agreement, it's clear to bid 3♦.

To be more clear: partner's 2♠ bid denied 3c♠. Otherwise he would have bid 3♥/3♠. Seems like 3♦ is hoping for a ♦ fit?

I find this really hard to believe. You would always bid 3H/3S to begin with when you had 3 spades? This seems to be the equivalent of saying you would never pass a weak 2S opener with 3 cards in spades which seems pretty ludicrous especially vul at imps, and especially when we know partner has hearts (so if he has a pretty good hand there isn't much need to preempt them immediately rather than trying to buy it in 2S).

[kgr]

Jlall, on Nov 23 2009, 12:42 AM, said:

kgr, on Nov 22 2009, 05:24 PM, said:

gnasher, on Nov 23 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

kgr, on Nov 22 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

You have the explicit agreement with your partner that 3♦ now shows a 6c♠ and a 5c♦ and less then opening values. Do you bid 3♦ or is it too risky Vul at IMPs?

With that agreement, it's clear to bid 3♦.

To be more clear: partner's 2♠ bid denied 3c♠. Otherwise he would have bid 3♥/3♠. Seems like 3♦ is hoping for a ♦ fit?

I find this really hard to believe. You would always bid 3H/3S to begin with when you had 3 spades? This seems to be the equivalent of saying you would never pass a weak 2S opener with 3 cards in spades which seems pretty ludicrous especially vul at imps, and especially when we know partner has hearts (so if he has a pretty good hand there isn't much need to preempt them immediately rather than trying to buy it in 2S).

Mostly the 2♠ bid would show Haert length and deny 3+ Spades. It is not impossible that partner had a 3c♠ but it is unlikely.

[OleBerg]

kgr, on Nov 23 2009, 12:04 AM, said:

My question was more about bidding 3D then about what it should mean.
Let me rephrase the question.
You have the explicit agreement with your partner that 3♦ now shows a 6c♠ and a 5c♦ and less then opening values. Do you bid 3♦ or is it too risky Vul at IMPs?

Seems quite obvious that this should be the agreement if 2♦ cannot contain a strong diamond opening. With a hearts multi, you simply bid a number of hearts.

And of course I bid 3♦.

[OleBerg]

Jlall, on Nov 22 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

We also have double available to show something.

I would think X= a 2S bid with extra offense that wants to bid (aka this hand), 3D= a good 3H bid, 3H=bad 3H bid. But I don't play multi.

Wise.

[whereagles]

If there ever was a hand where a preemptor has a 2nd bid, this has got to be it......

[kgr]

Scoring: IMP

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I wondered how it was possible that me and my partner didn't take 3♦ as ♦-GF. The reason is that the actual bidding was different:
2♦!-(Pass)-2♠!-(Pass)
Pass-(DBL)-Pass-(3♣)
3♦
 
2♦=multi
2♠=preempt or invite for ♥
My first pass showed a weak 2♠ and 3♦ showed a weak 2-suiter.
 
What do you think of 3♦ here?

[phil_20686]

Jlall, on Nov 22 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

kgr, on Nov 22 2009, 05:24 PM, said:

gnasher, on Nov 23 2009, 12:17 AM, said:

kgr, on Nov 22 2009, 11:04 PM, said:

You have the explicit agreement with your partner that 3♦ now shows a 6c♠ and a 5c♦ and less then opening values. Do you bid 3♦ or is it too risky Vul at IMPs?

With that agreement, it's clear to bid 3♦.

To be more clear: partner's 2♠ bid denied 3c♠. Otherwise he would have bid 3♥/3♠. Seems like 3♦ is hoping for a ♦ fit?

I find this really hard to believe. You would always bid 3H/3S to begin with when you had 3 spades? This seems to be the equivalent of saying you would never pass a weak 2S opener with 3 cards in spades which seems pretty ludicrous especially vul at imps, and especially when we know partner has hearts (so if he has a pretty good hand there isn't much need to preempt them immediately rather than trying to buy it in 2S).

It doesnt really say that justin, since the hands that bid 2s are already prepared to raise hearts. If you are too weak to raise either major then you would just bid hearts. Its 'relatively' hard to imagine a hand with 3 spades and 3 or more hearts that will make a raise in hearts but not in spades.