[H_KARLUK]

Do you like & dislike such auctions?
Why ?

[the hog]

Depends.

[Jlall]

shubiiii o wait...

[barmar]

Forcing for one round or to game?

[jdonn]

No I do not like and dislike such auctions.

[helene_t]

FSF sucks. Opener always answers the wrong question (i.e. reporting 3 card support when you are interested in a stopper, or general strength), so you need a 2nd relay but there isn't one in std methods I believe.

XYZ is probably better in 1m-1♥-1♠. Maybe Pavlichek's method is better.

[dicklont]

H_KARLUK, on Nov 21 2009, 08:44 AM, said:

Do you like & dislike such auctions?
Why ?

I like it, because it means we have strong hands and will play game or slam.

[pooltuna]

H_KARLUK, on Nov 21 2009, 01:44 AM, said:

Do you like & dislike such auctions?
Why ?

I accept it as a necessary evil

[Winstonm]

It's better than the alternative.

[kenrexford]

Winstonm, on Nov 21 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

It's better than the alternative.

Not necessarily. There might be something to be said for fourth suit crap. Or, FSC.

An example:

1♣-1♥
1♠-?

1NT = normal
2♣ = normal
2♦ = some weak hand where I want to rebid hearts or raise spades or something else weak
2♥ = heart rebid, forcing
2♠ = heart raise, forcing

I mean, it MIGHT have some merits...

[Winstonm]

Quote

FSF sucks

A real friend would post the telephone number, too.

[Phil]

kenrexford, on Nov 21 2009, 10:19 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Nov 21 2009, 09:48 AM, said:

It's better than the alternative.

Not necessarily. There might be something to be said for fourth suit crap. Or, FSC.

An example:

1♣-1♥
1♠-?

1NT = normal
2♣ = normal
2♦ = some weak hand where I want to rebid hearts or raise spades or something else weak
2♥ = heart rebid, forcing
2♠ = heart raise, forcing

I mean, it MIGHT have some merits...

A long time ago (I was younger than most of the juniors that post here) in a galaxy, far far away, I had submitted the following to the Bridge World for consideration:

After a 1/1/1:

1N = one round force - like a forcing NT
2x = one round force - or game forcing.

I only played it with one or two partners. I had mixed results with it, but for some reason it worked better with weak NT's.

[H_KARLUK]

barmar, on Nov 21 2009, 03:26 AM, said:

Forcing for one round or to game?

That's th question.

[awm]

I like 4th suit forcing to game. In fact it's one of the few conventions I insist on with new partners. In established partnerships, I think there are advantages to playing the fourth suit as a game forcing relay, where opener shows his entire shape etc. Relays are great for slam bidding, and most of the disadvantages involve shapely responder hands (which can often splinter rather than bid the fourth suit) or opposing interference (which is unlikely after the opponents have passed their way through the first round or two of the auction) or strong single-suiters that want to hear about controls and not shape (which can make a strong jump shift earlier in the bidding).

In principle a fourth suit invitational-plus structure might be okay, but it often seems to muddy the waters as to what is forcing, and requires opener to jump the bidding just to show a good hand. The fact that I tend to raise very freely on three card support also reduces the need for an invitational fourth suit bid (i.e. I would raise spades on the auction 1♦-1♠-2♣ with three-card support, so there's not really a need to use 2♥ as a checkback for three-card support, but a GF'ing relay to right-side 3NT and/or find out opener's shape for a minor-suit slam can be really useful).

[blackshoe]

Seems to me that if an agreement "muddies the waters" then the agreement is incomplete. Perhaps partnerships with this particular problem need to discuss in what circumstances further bids are not game forcing.

[Codo]

I love 4sf and just started to play it as GF someweeks ago. Both ways work fine, surprisingly to me the GF way seems to work better. Good luck that I am not too old to learn.

[gwnn]

sacrilege! next thing we'll know Codo will not promise both red suits after 1C-(1S)-x ??

[Codo]

gwnn, on Nov 23 2009, 10:19 PM, said:

sacrilege! next thing we'll know Codo will not promise both red suits after 1C-(1S)-x ??

Actually my partner forced me to do that too... it simply shows the other major, what else?