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Natural vs. cue-bid

Poll: What does mean 4 club? (21 member(s) have cast votes)

What does mean 4 club?

  1. natural (7 votes [33.33%])

    Percentage of vote: 33.33%

  2. cue-bid, agrees diamonds (14 votes [66.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 66.67%

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#1 User is offline   mdaw 

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Posted 2009-November-20, 13:08

The bidding:

1♥ - 1♠
2♦ - 3♣*
3♦** - 4♣

* - FSF, 2NT would be inviting
** - shows minimum hand with 55

What should mean 4♣?
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#2 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2009-November-20, 16:14

Hi,

Natural makes the most sense.

If you want to agree diamonds, you can bid diamonds.
If you want agree hearts ...
If you ...

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#3 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-November-20, 16:40

For this to be natural, Responder must have a lot of black cards. With 4♠/5+♣, Responder would start 2♣. With 5♠/6+♣, Responder would start 2♣. With 5♠/5♣, Responder would presumably bid 3NT at this point. With 6♠/6♣, maybe Responder now bids 4♣.

In light of all this, it seems that 4♣ would work better for some special reason. That said, I'm not sure what special reason is sexy enough to replace the both blacks meaning. I suppose cue in support makes sense.

If this sequence came up enough to make it worthwhile, I'd tinker and make 4♣ a shape ask, seeking the shortness. 4♦ stiff club, 4♥ stiff spade, 4♠ void club, 4NT void spade, 5♣ double stiff is possible. Or, 4♦ stiff club (4♥ then RKCB diamonds); 4♥+ RKCB answers with stiff spade; or the other way.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#4 User is offline   Jlall 

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Posted 2009-November-20, 16:43

According to my meta agreements this would be a cuebid for diamonds, no idea if it's best or not but for almost everyone it is too laborious to have different agreements for every auction to try to be optimal, so you fall back on some rules (no new suits at the 4 level in unpreempted auctions).
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#5 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-November-20, 19:40

I like to have the general agreement that a second-round jump in the fourth suit is natural, 5-5 and game-forcing, so bidding and rebidding the fourth suit is never natural.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#6 User is offline   ONEferBRID 

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Posted 2009-November-21, 03:47

I agree with Ken and Uwe.....

4♣ says " I have more black cards than you have red cards because if I had interest in a red suit, I could have just bid 3♥ or 4♦ after 4th Suit GF " ......
" so pick one of mine " .
Don Stenmark ( TWOferBRIDGE )
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#7 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-November-21, 07:21

ONEferBRID, on Nov 21 2009, 04:47 AM, said:

I agree with Ken and Uwe.....

4♣ says " I have more black cards than you have red cards because if I had interest in a red suit, I could have just bid 3♥ or 4♦ after 4th Suit GF " ......
" so pick one of mine " .

Technically, you agree with my assessment of what others would play. I would rather this be supportive of diamonds. I just don't know what it should say about that fact, precisely.

My default would also be cue, by agreement, if this was discussed.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
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