[bali 2]

Playing with screens.
North opens 1NT, East Pass, S 2♣,West Pass.
The tray is pushed back to the NE side, but the players don't notice the 2♣ bid, assume the auction closed, take their bidding cards back and push the tray to SW side.
But South asks what is happening and wants to bid again.
What is the ruling ?

Does TD consider the auction not closed ?
But W, N and E have passed : doesn't the law 22A2 apply ?

Many thanks in advance
Al. Ohana

[gordontd]

What regulations were in force? It seems unlikely that they've followed correct procedure, but players often do this (pick up their cards to indicate a final pass), and if that's generally accepted (or even tolerated) in your jurisdiction then that's what they seem to have done.

It seems clear that neither of the "passes" was unintended within the meaning of L25A, so they are stuck with them.

It doesn't seem right to allow players extra rights to do what they would not have been allowed to do had they properly followed the regulations (ie take back passes that were intended and correctly made).

[gnasher]

So far the only calls that have occurred are

1NT pass 2♣ pass

The auction is not over, so it continues, with North to bid.

When North and East took removed their bidding cards from the tray, that was because they thought that the auction had already ended. The action of removing your bidding cards may sometimes mean "pass", but it didn't mean that here.

[bali 2]

gnasher, on Nov 20 2009, 06:46 AM, said:

So far the only calls that have occurred are

1NT pass 2♣ pass

The auction is not over, so it continues, with North to bid.

When North and East took removed their bidding cards from the tray, that was because they thought that the auction had already ended. The action of removing your bidding cards may sometimes mean "pass", but it didn't mean that here.

Quote

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The action of removing your bidding cards may sometimes mean "pass", but it didn't mean that here.

Does Pass means sometimes something and sometimes something else ?

[bluejak]

Taking your cards off the board means pass in a lot of cases. I agree with Gordon: you do not get the benefit of being allowed to pass this way, and not to have passed if you do not feel like it. Three passes: auction ended.

[Codo]

I do not understand the opinion why there are three passes.

First off all: Where in the regulation is paraphrased that it is a pass if you take away your cards? I guess nowhere, but if someone can name the § I would try to learn something new.

So in a case where there is no clear regulation, shouldn't we try to restore the "right" result as often as possible? And this is not 2 club by South.

Obviously, if you judge that there had been three passes, you must decide that they have to play 2 club. But if you don't, you can rule, that there was no more bid after Wests pass and take it from there.

[kvar]

Even if removing your bidding cards means Pass, it seems clear that North (and East) did not intend to Pass. Once you tell North your ruling, if he says that he didn't mean to Pass without pause for thought, this falls squarely under 25A1 and 25A3, and he gets to change his call since partner hasn't called and the auction period is not over yet.

However, if North could have heard South say he wanted to bid again, North has UI which might restrict his choices. It seems unlikely on this auction that Pass is a LA, though.

[duschek]

gordontd, on Nov 20 2009, 06:27 AM, said:

It seems unlikely that they've followed correct procedure, but players often do this (pick up their cards to indicate a final pass), and if that's generally accepted (or even tolerated) in your jurisdiction then that's what they seem to have done.

If a player removes the bidding cards in the passout seat, it generally is a different way of saying "I pass". That I would count as passing, as if the player had actually placed a green bidding card on the table.

However, in this case the players did not intend to pass or in any way imply that they have passed. I would not even apply Law 25A, as the players have not called. They have removed the bidding cards in the belief that the auction is over.

Consider the following analogous case: South dealer, bidding goes 1NT-pass-2D-pass (2D=transfer). Now West removes his bidding cards and leads a card against the 1NT contract which he believes is being played. Would you rule that West has passed out of turn?

[gnasher]

bluejak, on Nov 20 2009, 02:35 PM, said:

Taking your cards off the board means pass in a lot of cases. I agree with Gordon: you do not get the benefit of being allowed to pass this way, and not to have passed if you do not feel like it. Three passes: auction ended.

It's not a question of what North "feels like", it's a question of what he did.

If I knock my bidding box over and the 7NT trump card appears face up on the table, I haven't bid 7NT, because the 7NT card didn't arrive on the table as part of an intention to make a call. Likewise, if I pick up my cards not intending that action to represent a call, I haven't called.

[gordontd]

gnasher, on Nov 20 2009, 03:59 PM, said:

Likewise, if I pick up my cards not intending that action to represent a call, I haven't called.

If you do precisely the same thing when you do intend to pass, then it's hard to distinguish. I'd have more sympathy for the argument of a player who follows the correct procedure when passing (which may be the case in the original post - we weren't told).

[gordontd]

duschek, on Nov 20 2009, 03:53 PM, said:

Consider the following analogous case: South dealer, bidding goes 1NT-pass-2D-pass (2D=transfer). Now West removes his bidding cards and leads a card against the 1NT contract which he believes is being played. Would you rule that West has passed out of turn?

I don't think this is analogous. I'd rule it as an exposed card during the auction and apply L24.

[Blue Uriah]

gnasher, on Nov 20 2009, 03:59 PM, said:

bluejak, on Nov 20 2009, 02:35 PM, said:

Taking your cards off the board means pass in a lot of cases. I agree with Gordon: you do not get the benefit of being allowed to pass this way, and not to have passed if you do not feel like it.  Three passes: auction ended.

It's not a question of what North "feels like", it's a question of what he did.

If I knock my bidding box over and the 7NT trump card appears face up on the table, I haven't bid 7NT, because the 7NT card didn't arrive on the table as part of an intention to make a call. Likewise, if I pick up my cards not intending that action to represent a call, I haven't called.

That's a poor analogy. Knocking your bidding box over probably isn't part of the procedure for making a bid in your jurisdiction. Picking the bids up from the table might well be - if not explicitly so, then by common habit.

[blackshoe]

If the auction had gone 1NT-P-P-P, with the tray on the SW side of the screen after West's pass, what do the screen regulations say is proper procedure? Is it to remove the screen, because the auction is over, or is it to pass the tray and then remove the screen?

One wonders why players should pick up their bidding cards before the screen is removed, since leaving them in place through the clarification period would be useful, to say the least.

There has been a bid, and the last bid has not been followed by three consecutive passes. North's turn to bid. PP to both sides for paying insufficient attention to the game (if they're playing with screens, they're experienced enough that they rate a PP imo).

I do have some sympathy for David's position, and for one thing it may well get these players to pay more attention to what they're doing without a PP. In some similar cases I might well rule that NE have passed, but here I think it's fairly clearly that the intent in picking up the bidding cards was not to pass, but under the assumption the auction was already over.

[dan_ehh]

I think there is a distinct difference between two scenarios:

1. The last two calls in the auction were passes, and the next player, whose intention is to save time, simply removes the bidding cards instead of reaching for the green pass card, putting it on the table, and then removing them.
2. All the other players at the table, removing their bidding cards after the auction has reached its conclusion.

In the first scenario, the last player, who neglected to put the pass card on the table, is considered to have passed.
In the second case, all the other players are just cleaning up.

In this case, the players sitting in the north and east seats did not think they had another call to make. They thought the auction had already come to an end. Therefore I think it is wrong to say that by taking away their bidding cards they have passed.

They were, from their point of view, just cleaning up.

[gnasher]

gordontd, on Nov 20 2009, 04:35 PM, said:

If you do precisely the same thing when you do intend to pass, then it's hard to distinguish. I'd have more sympathy for the argument of a player who follows the correct procedure when passing (which may be the case in the original post - we weren't told).

Only "more sympathy"? If North always follows the proper procedure in making his calls, it would be utterly absurd to rule that his picking up his bidding cards constituted a pass.

[gordontd]

dan_ehh, on Nov 20 2009, 06:44 PM, said:

They were, from their point of view, just cleaning up.

They were also failing to pay attention to the auction.

[gordontd]

gnasher, on Nov 20 2009, 06:47 PM, said:

Only "more sympathy"?

Does "more" have an upper limit?

[gnasher]

gordontd, on Nov 20 2009, 07:07 PM, said:

gnasher, on Nov 20 2009, 06:47 PM, said:

Only "more sympathy"?

Does "more" have an upper limit?

No, but in this case the lower limit of "more sympathy" is quite low, given how unsympathetic you were about the situation in the original post.

[dan_ehh]

gordontd, on Nov 20 2009, 09:05 PM, said:

dan_ehh, on Nov 20 2009, 06:44 PM, said:

They were, from their point of view, just cleaning up.

They were also failing to pay attention to the auction.

You are correct, but I do not know of any law which says you should treat this behaviour as a pass. Logic also dictates that you shouldn't. Perhaps a PP is in order.

Your point about not being able to distinguish between this behaviour when it is intended as a pass and when it is not intended as a pass may be valid under a set of different circumstances, but it seems to be moot in this situation, because one cannot intend to pass when one thinks it is not one's turn to pass.

[bluejak]

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You are correct, but I do not know of any law which says you should treat this behaviour as a pass.

Of course there is no Law [though I understand Denmark has a relevant regulation]. But custom & practice allows it to be done. It seems to me that if you normally remove your cards to make a pass you have put yourself in the unfortunate position whereby if you remove your cards you have passed.

Compare my actions. I touch a pass card as the final pass: I know a player who always says "Pass" as the final pass. These are clear unambiguous passes, albeit illegal under the Regulations. But taking your cards away I do not like because it is ambiguous: have you passed or have you taken your cards away without passing? Thus, players that do this ambiguous action should not get the benefit of any doubt when there is any.

Quote

Your point about not being able to distinguish between this behaviour when it is intended as a pass and when it is not intended as a pass may be valid under a set of different circumstances, but it seems to be moot in this situation, because one cannot intend to pass when one thinks it is not one's turn to pass.

No, not at all. That is just the reason why I find this method of passing unacceptable. Since the action of taking cards way is ambiguous and illegal, a player who does so should expect to be ruled against if it matters.