[zheddh]

You are sitting South. North deals and opens 1S. The auction(uncontested) goes

1♠ - 2♥
3♥ - ?

Q1: Should 3♥ show extra values? Even if with 4 card support?
Q2: If 3♥ was based on a 4 card support, does it deny shortness somewhere?
Q3: What would a raise to 4♥ by North show instead?
Q4: Is 3♠ by South a double fit or is it a control in support of hearts?
Q5: Assuming you have the following hand, what do you respond to 3♥?

Scoring: IMP

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[gwnn]

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=28700

I guess this thread isn't very helpful though.

http://squeezingthedummy.blogspot.com/2005...arrival_16.html

This one is much more helpful, too bad many suit symbols have gone now.

[Jlall]

gwnn, on Nov 18 2009, 04:54 AM, said:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=28700

I guess this thread isn't very helpful though.

http://squeezingthedummy.blogspot.com/2005...arrival_16.html

This one is much more helpful, too bad many suit symbols have gone now.

wow wtf I lost my suit symbols, will try to get that fixed ASAP.

FWIW I wrote most of my stuff on STD like 5 years ago when I was 18, I don't agree with some of it now heh. Like I agree fast arrival is bad for the reasons mentioned, but I would now add in that serious/non serious 3N is helpful in this type of situation too and is a good thing to play

[gwnn]

this is the thread I was looking for:

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=31711

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 depends, if 2H promises another bid, than I would ay,
yes, it should show add. strength (looking at the hand
you gave, 2H was most likely not 100% game forcing)
#2 no, sometimes you are too strong to make a splinter
#3 dead min
#4 a control, but acontrol in form of a top honor, the queen
would be a control
#5 4H, I have min for my call, I would not bid 3S

With kind regards
Marlowe

[helene_t]

Maybe this is a stupid and/or non-standard view but I think it's better to play 3♥ as mandatory with any hand with 4-card support that can't make a picture bid or splinter. The thing is, delayed support can easily be on xxx and sometimes on Hx so if you also give delayed support with four hearts it becomes too difficult, I think.

After 3♥, use non-serious 3NT or similar to sort out range. If 3♥ promises four-card support then we don't need 3NT as an offer to play. But I am not sure if it is playable to have 3♥ promising four. But non-serious 3NT should apply regardless I think.

[zheddh]

P_Marlowe, on Nov 18 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

#1 depends, if 2H promises another bid, than I would ay,
yes, it should show add. strength (looking at the hand
you gave, 2H was most likely not 100% game forcing)

Just to clarify 2/1 is 100% forcing to game. with 3 card support and such a nice heart suit, I decided to game force with it. I think this is going to be a standard view.

[kenrexford]

Very stylistic. Some disputes.

Just because I like poking the badger...

The one thing that is 100% clear?

Any number of cuebidding/patterning styles make sense, as do serious or non-serious 3NT, last train, and picture bids. But...

It is absolutely critical that 3♠ by Responder at this point be a cuebid and not showing a double fit. Responder needs that call with even a stiff Queen of spades.

Change your hand to Qx-AKQxxx-xx-xxx, and 3♠ is your only good option. Or, A-AKQxxx-xxx-xxx.

I would bid 4♥, personally. Easier for me, though. By not bidding 3♠, I will have announced that my highest possible spade is the Jack, or none. I will have denied serious interest. I will have denied the Ace or King of clubs and the Ace or King of diamonds, and I will have denied any shortness in either minor. Thus, partner will likely suspect that my hearts are very good, because I don't have anything else. I mean, the maximum I can have in the other three suits is J-QJ-QJ, which is 7 HCP, so I need at least 6 HCP, meaning at worst two of the top three hearts, and at worst KQJ if I don't have the Ace.

[P_Marlowe]

zheddh, on Nov 18 2009, 07:08 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Nov 18 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

#1 depends, if 2H promises another bid, than I would ay,
     yes, it should show add. strength (looking at the hand
     you gave, 2H was most likely not 100% game forcing)

Just to clarify 2/1 is 100% forcing to game. with 3 card support and such a nice heart suit, I decided to game force with it. I think this is going to be a standard view.

Hi,

if 2H is 100% game forcing, than I think 3H should show
add. strength, the reason being, that at one point in time,
someone needs to start limiting his hand in a gf auction,
otherwise you have reached the 3/4level and still nobody
knowes anything about the upper limit, and than even something
like serious 3NT, Last Train wont help you, because there is
not enough room left.
Now if you have 4 card support, than you have 54??, and
any reasonable opening with 31 in the other suit may already
be sufficient to qualify for add. strength.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ArcLight]

>Q1: Should 3♥ show extra values? Even if with 4 card support?

No. It just establishes the trump suit, shoing a 5-3 (or better) fit, since the 2H bid promised at least 5 hearts.
(3H does not promise 4 hearts)


>Q2: If 3♥ was based on a 4 card support, does it deny shortness somewhere?

I would say yes, in that you can splinter with shortnes, using a single jump in this case, since you no longer need jumps to show strength after the 2/1 response.

>Q3: What would a raise to 4♥ by North show instead?

It shows a hand with nothing outside the 2 mentioned suits (hearts and Clubs) and South should not attempt a slam unless he has a lot outside those 2 suits


>Q4: Is 3♠ by South a double fit or is it a control in support of hearts?

I assume a double fit.


>Q5: Assuming you have the following hand, what do you respond to 3♥?

4 hearts. Pard has no shortness, I have nothing outside. No slam here unless pard has both outside aces and a source of tricks in great spades. RKCBW by him lets me show 2 key cards and the trump Q. (which gets us to teh 6 level anyway)

[ONEferBRID]

Coincidently, this was a topic of discussion recently at rec.games.bridge in two posts ( Fit or Cue and Fit or Cue, Part II ) :

1A - 2B ( 2/1 GF )
3B - 3A

The answers were mixed.

One person though, Erik Leong, made a statement similar to Ken Rexford here ( omg, there are 2 of them that think alike ! ! ) as to Responder's 2nd bid in Opener's suit :
"I would play the bid as a useful card in partner's suit such as the
queen or king in the suit. It could be as little as Qx. Aces are
easy to find later. Gold nuggets in partner's suit are harder to
otherwise show".

In the first thread he said: " Partner's holding in his suit usually is sufficient enough
to know what filler you are showing "

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
That said, here is a bridge adage from Fred Gitelman I found in a similar discussion from about a year ago ( I found it in one of gwnn search threads ):

--Show your SHAPE when trumps are agreed at the 2-level.
After that cuebid.

--CUEBID when trumps are agreed at the 3-level.

[gwnn]

Jlall, on Nov 18 2009, 09:59 AM, said:

wow wtf I lost my suit symbols, will try to get that fixed ASAP.

now instead of empty spaces I see question marks (in safari) or one of those missing picture diagrams (in Chrome and IE).

[lowerline]

A1: No. Always support with a 3crd.

A2: No. A splinter also shows slam interest. This is clearly related with the first question. If the answer to the first question is 'yes', the answer to this question will be 'yes' as well.

A3: Concentrated values in spades and hearts. Denies control in the minor suits.

A4: Double fit. RKB with 6 keys and the queens in both suits is now in effect.

A5: 3♠ double fit.


Steven