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Name the worst Convention

#61 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2004-June-30, 11:45

One of the funniest "Blackwood moments" ever seen ocurred in a Juniors Zonal Championship when the following hand appeared:

Scoring: IMP


North opened 1s
East interposed a 3d bid
South bid 4d
West doubled
Now north used 4NT to ask for aces
East passed
And south bid 5c (one ace)
West decided it was time to bid 5d
North passed using the "forcing pass" something that was new and fancy for him
East passed
And now South bid 5NT (alerted on both sides as "asking for kings")
West passed
and North bid 6h showing 2 kings.

Now north knew about aces
And South about kings

Eventually in a classic juniors move South bid 7d (!!!!!!!!!!!)
North thought for a zillion years and emerged with a 7s bid

And yes East lead a heart.....
The legend of the black octogon.
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#62 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-June-30, 11:59

luis, on Jun 30 2004, 01:30 PM, said:

Ben,

Isn't it funny that, to defend blackwood, you choose two hands where it has been missused ? :-)

No, it is not funny, it was intentional. I wanted to show why people posting in this thread might list blackwood as "the worst convention". It is my point that it is not a bad convention, but rather one that is commonly misused. We have all seen 1NT-4NT and 1NT-2C-2D-4NT used (incorrectly as blackwood)... it is murdered all the time. Misuse doesn't make it a bad convention... use it correctly and it is golden.

Ben
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#63 User is offline   JRG 

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Posted 2004-June-30, 12:14

Chamaco, on Jun 30 2004, 04:59 AM, said:

I'd like to add to the list of "worse-ever" convention, the application of the Jordan/Truscott invitational+ unbalanced raise to minors openings.

1m-(1Y)-2NT or
1m-(Dbl)-2NT or
1m-pass-2NT

Used as 10+ with good support for the minor is the very best way to wrongside the 3NT contract.
Obviously the conventional use of 2NT is not a problem when you have a fit in a major .

I play that -- sort of.

First, with with Dormer/Jordan you don't play 1x - 1y - 2NT showing 10+ with support. It is only used after a double (1x - Dbl - 2NT).

The other thing is that when applied to the minors, a lot of people do what we do and reverse the meanings of a jump raise to the 3-level and 2NT (for exactly the reason you specify):

1m - Dbl - 3m = Limit raise
1m - Dbl - 2NT = Preemptive raise to 3 of minor

You lose a bit of the preemptive effect (because advancer can cue-bid your minor at the 3-level over your 2NT bid), but it seems to work OK.
JRG
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#64 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 15:48

Free, on Jun 30 2004, 10:06 AM, said:

Namyats is quite fine, but not in 3rd & 4th seat imo. Any thoughts?

I think Namyats in 3 rd seat is great.
In 4th seat I play it as fairly strong, kinda what an old Acol 2 opening would have been. But not much defense.
Any convention has some use to it, if you discuss it properly.
Execpt Flannery of course :D

Mike :unsure:
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#65 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 16:16

I found this post to late :-(

Worst conventions in my opinion:

Cappeletti
Gerber
'always lead highest in partner´s suit'
2 strong, asking for aces (albarran)
Flannery
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#66 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2004-July-01, 17:32

Trpltrbl, on Jul 1 2004, 11:48 PM, said:

Free, on Jun 30 2004, 10:06 AM, said:

Namyats is quite fine, but not in 3rd & 4th seat imo.  Any thoughts?

I think Namyats in 3 rd seat is great.
In 4th seat I play it as fairly strong, kinda what an old Acol 2 opening would have been. But not much defense.
Any convention has some use to it, if you discuss it properly.
Execpt Flannery of course :P

Mike :D

sigh... :)

i guess that settles it mike... the world champions who use it should have checked with you first, so they'd know how useless a convention it really is
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#67 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 05:45

[quote name='luke warm' date='Jul 1 2004, 06:32 PM'] Execpt Flannery of course :D

Mike :) [/QUOTE]
sigh... :)

i guess that settles it mike... the world champions who use it should have checked with you first, so they'd know how useless a convention it really is [/quote]
I will after I beat them :P And I really really hope it is a Flannery deal that settles it hehehe.

Mike :D
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#68 User is offline   EarlPurple 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 06:51

Benji Acol is the worst convention to hit the UK. In Benji Acol, 2 is a game-force while 2 is a strong hand with at least 8 playing tricks in any unspecified suit, and both can be used for strong NT ranges.

It is bad because it wastes two 2-level bids for sequences that rarely show up and can be integrated into one anyway.

In 1996, while I was doing my usual Brighton report, I was chatting to some ladies who were playing Benji Acol. I asked them how many times yet it had come up - not at all was the response, as expected. I told them that for a pairs tournament, it would be better if they made 2 a straightforward weak 2 bid, and combined all the strong hands into 2. I have generally found that a weak 2 bid comes up 1-2 times in a session of 24 boards, and can be quite effective when it does.

Another convention that is popular in the UK is the multi 2 opening. This gained popularity because players did not want to give up their strong twos in the majors. Of course in MP it is not good to play strong twos as they are unlikely to come up that often, and for it to be a bad board, you'd have to open with a bid of 1, have it passed out and miss game. My issue against the multi is that it is relatively easy to defend against - with an intermediate hand you just double, because it's unlikely the opps will play the hand in 2-X (or XX) with profit that often. Some players combine [2di] as a single-suit weak 2 with 2 and 2 showing two-suited hands. This is a much better treatment, though I still think the regular weak 2 is more effective on the hands where that is what you hold.

Someone has brought up here the law of total tricks. True, it is an inaccurate measure, but is the basis behind the safety of many conventions, such as interfering over strong club/diamond bids and 1NT openers. I think it is a reasonable guide to showing how far one should raise, but knowing partner will raise you to the level of the trump support is very very useful to know when making decisions. If I have a suit AKxxx and overcall and partner fails to raise at all, it is potentially useful to know that the ace and king are likely to stand up in defence.

And there is nothing worse than risking your neck to come in while partner sits there passing away because he refuses to raise you with "only 5 points", which happen to include Kxxx in one of your suits and Qx in the other.
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#69 User is offline   Chamaco 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 07:06

EarlPurple, on Jul 2 2004, 12:51 PM, said:

Benji Acol is the worst convention to hit the UK. In Benji Acol, 2 is a game-force while 2 is a strong hand with at least 8 playing tricks in any unspecified suit, and both can be used for strong NT ranges.

It is bad because it wastes two 2-level bids for sequences that rarely show up and can be integrated into one anyway.

In 1996, while I was doing my usual Brighton report, I was chatting to some ladies who were playing Benji Acol. I asked them how many times yet it had come up - not at all was the response, as expected. I told them that for a pairs tournament, it would be better if they made 2 a straightforward weak 2 bid, and combined all the strong hands into 2. I have generally found that a weak 2 bid comes up 1-2 times in a session of 24 boards, and can be quite effective when it does.

Another convention that is popular in the UK is the multi 2 opening. This gained popularity because players did not want to give up their strong twos in the majors. Of course in MP it is not good to play strong twos as they are unlikely to come up that often, and for it to be a bad board, you'd have to open with a bid of 1, have it passed out and miss game. My issue against the multi is that it is relatively easy to defend against - with an intermediate hand you just double, because it's unlikely the opps will play the hand in 2-X (or XX) with profit that often. Some players combine [2di] as a single-suit weak 2 with 2 and 2 showing two-suited hands. This is a much better treatment, though I still think the regular weak 2 is more effective on the hands where that is what you hold.

Someone has brought up here the law of total tricks. True, it is an inaccurate measure, but is the basis behind the safety of many conventions, such as interfering over strong club/diamond bids and 1NT openers. I think it is a reasonable guide to showing how far one should raise, but knowing partner will raise you to the level of the trump support is very very useful to know when making decisions. If I have a suit AKxxx and overcall and partner fails to raise at all, it is potentially useful to know that the ace and king are likely to stand up in defence.

And there is nothing worse than risking your neck to come in while partner sits there passing away because he refuses to raise you with "only 5 points", which happen to include Kxxx in one of your suits and Qx in the other.

Agree on all points raised by Earl:

1) 2C/2D as semiGF/GF are a waste of bidding space.
If the purpose is to limit 1-level opening bids, so that , for example, with 16/17 u can open 1H and jump rebid 3m without setting a GF, then when u do have a 18/19 two suiter u will have to open it 2C, and I hate boith 2C and 2D as strong undefined 2-suiter.
Bsides, strong 2C opening is already bad "per se", self-preemptive, and most experts do not have a really good followup for unbvalancced hands.
Why adding another bad opening which increases even nmore the same shortcomings ?

2) Multi 2D loses preemption in terms of a normal weak 2 (lose altogether weak 2 in D, preempts lower if ur suit is a major).
Yet, I am willing to accept this if this frees other preemptive bids (2H/S/NT). On balance, I'd pick the structures which will help me preempting more often.

3) Law of Total Trick: it's "adoration" and abuse may be bad, but so is the one of Goren point count. Good agreements with pard on policy of showing support and how high, can be very useful also for negative infgerences, as Earl mentioned.
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#70 User is offline   EarlPurple 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 07:10

I do not know why, by the way, so many players here have criticized the use of a double of a 1 overcall to be used when holding only 4 spades, while the bid of 1 promises 5. Personally I find this very useful.

eg: opener has Qxx xx AQJxx KJx and opens 1. Auction continue 1 by LHO, 1 by partner, 2 by RHO. Now I can happily support to 2 with 3. even just Qxx. If partner doubles 1 instead, I probably have to pass 2 now, but if partner re-opens with a double I will bid 3. Partner could have:

Kxxx xxx x AQxxx (How do we reach 3 ?)
Kxxx xxx xx Axxx (probably best to pass)
Kxxx xx Kxx Qxxx (we could compete to 3 at least)

On none of those though do I want to be in 2
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#71 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 10:10

Ben, I had the South hand at table 1. That hand came straight out of this week's Jr Flight tournament.

My 1 opening was a precision 1C, not a ridiculous bid, which is the impression you gave with your exclamation mark.

However, my partner really should have known better, as we do play exclusion RKCB in this situation.

Mark
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#72 User is offline   MickyB 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 14:53

Mark, I think Ben's exclamation mark indicated that 1 was artificial. And I have no memory of agreeing voidwood on a sequence like that, otherwise I would have bid it!
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#73 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 17:18

About multi: I don't like it. The only reason for using it is to free up 2/, and that isn't important. I mean.. what will you use it for?

Strong-twos? You can bid those via 2.
Weak 54 two-suiters? Just pretend you have a 1-suiter and bid the major.
Weak 55 two-suiters? Possible, but they just don't come up that often.
2/ as stronger 3/ preempt? Could be useful, but only in 1st/2nd seat.

So, multi's advantage is rather small and its disadvantages are many: not always clear what suit pard has, easier to defend than a weak two, unable to open a weak two in diamonds...

I say BIN IT :rolleyes:
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#74 User is offline   inquiry 

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Posted 2004-July-02, 19:23

mr1303, on Jul 2 2004, 12:10 PM, said:

Ben, I had the South hand at table 1. That hand came straight out of this week's Jr Flight tournament.

My 1 opening was a precision 1C, not a ridiculous bid, which is the impression you gave with your exclamation mark.

However, my partner really should have known better, as we do play exclusion RKCB in this situation.

Mark

I used Cascade's most excellent program (linconverter.exe), to convert the hands and auctions from my hand log (I was kibitizing) to post the hand and auction. The exclaimation marks are not something I inserted, but rather how the software indicates that the bid was alerted. So the exclamation mark by "your" 1C bid (I am not certain it was you or not, but as there was only four tables, it probably was) simply means that you (CORRECTLY) alerted your opening bid. Besides, exlamation points should be used to indicate "great bid" if not used for alerts, similarly to marks in chess, with ? meaning bad bid and !? meaning speculative bid I guess... if one wanted to use such marks.

Sorry you misunderstood...

Ben
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#75 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2004-July-03, 01:13

"So, multi's advantage is rather small and its disadvantages are many: not always clear what suit pard has, easier to defend than a weak two"

The above comment is totally incorrect as most will recognise!

The multi 2D is of course, an extremely useful bid, particularly if you are using the mini - multi, where it shows a weak 2 in either major only and thus is non forcing. It puts a great deal of pressure on the opponents. Using the multi means that 2H/S can be used to show 5-5 hands - an extremely useful treatment. You do, of course , lose the ability to open a weak 2D, but that bid does not have a lot of pre emptive effect, though it can be useful.
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#76 User is offline   Dwayne 

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Posted 2004-July-03, 01:25

Of course best of all is 2 to show a weak 2 in either Major.

those of us who arent too gutless play it non-forcing, of course.

dwayne
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#77 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2004-July-03, 01:50

I agree with your 2H bid. We used to play this.
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#78 User is offline   bearmum 

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Posted 2004-July-03, 06:52

the WORST convention is the one you have agreed to play and ONE of you forgets and you get a BOTTOM score :blink:

Having said that MY worst ones are (in no particular order )

Gerber (Especially playing Acol)

Lebensohl (only cos I have NEVER managed to work it out -- MY fault I agree)

Blackwood (when initiated by a player who has NO idea what to bid after pard's response--- whatever that is)
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#79 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2004-July-04, 08:29

Apologies for the misunderstanding Ben
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#80 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2004-July-04, 18:46

inquiry, on Jul 2 2004, 10:23 PM, said:

I used Cascade's most excellent program (linconverter.exe), to convert the hands and auctions from my hand log (I was kibitizing) to post the hand and auction. The exclaimation marks are not something I inserted, but rather how the software indicates that the bid was alerted. So the exclamation mark by "your" 1C bid (I am not certain it was you or not, but as there was only four tables, it probably was) simply means that you (CORRECTLY) alerted your opening bid.

Hi

Would something other than exclaimation marks be better for an alert.

I could also easily make it optional to include the alerts.

Perhaps if I got really sophisticated I could make the alert marks fully customizable.

Another idea is to automatically add a key that says "! alert" or something similar.

Any constructive thoughts...

Download LinConverter here
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