[Winstonm]

Quote

“There is no piece of land in Afghanistan that has not been occupied by one of our soldiers at some time or another.  Nevertheless much of the territory stays in the hands of the terrorists. We control the provincial centers, but we cannot maintain political control over the territory we seize.

Our soldiers are not to blame. They’ve fought incredibly bravely in adverse conditions. But to occupy towns and villages temporarily has little value in such a vast land where the insurgents can just disappear into the hills.  We need extra troops and equipment.  Without them, without a lot more men, this war will continue for a very, very long time.”  - Sergei Akhromeyev, commander of the Soviet armed forces, to the Soviet Union’s Politburo on Nov. 13, 1986.

[blackshoe]

Plus ça change, plus c'est là mëme chose.

[Winstonm]

I really do wonder what makes people think the way they do - is it hubris, confidence, or idiocy that leads to repetition of past failures?

[helene_t]

Winstonm, on Oct 31 2009, 10:19 PM, said:

is it hubris, confidence, or idiocy that leads to repetition of past failures?

Is this a self-synonymous pleonasm, or am I just repeating myself?

[Winstonm]

It is not wise for the Christian white
To hustle the Asian brown;
For the Christian riles
And the Asian smiles
And weareth the Christian down.

At the end of the fight
Lies a tombstone white
With the name of the late deceased;

And the epitaph drear,
A fool lies here,
Who tried to hustle the East.

Rudyard Kipling

[blackshoe]

Kipling, yes. What's the name of the poem? I've forgotten.

[kenberg]

Winstonm, on Oct 31 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

I really do wonder what makes people think the way they do - is it hubris, confidence, or idiocy that leads to repetition of past failures?

Winston, I have the same problem. I think matters through carefully and explain to everyone what the correct conclusions are, and still there are those who disagree with me! Idiocy and hubris certainly, but there must be more. I am thinking demonic possession.

[Al_U_Card]

M I L I T A R Y
I N D U S T R I A L
C O M P L E X


At least it keeps them from occupying Seattle.....for now

[Trinidad]

kenberg, on Nov 1 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Oct 31 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

I really do wonder what makes people think the way they do - is it hubris, confidence, or idiocy that leads to repetition of past failures?

Winston, I have the same problem. I think matters through carefully and explain to everyone what the correct conclusions are, and still there are those who disagree with me! Idiocy and hubris certainly, but there must be more. I am thinking demonic possession.

I know exactly what you mean, Ken.
(From about 0:45)

Rik

[Lobowolf]

Winstonm, on Oct 31 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

I really do wonder what makes people think the way they do - is it hubris, confidence, or idiocy that leads to repetition of past failures?

You mean in general, or just with respect to this?

[kenberg]

Trinidad, on Nov 1 2009, 09:02 AM, said:

kenberg, on Nov 1 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

Winstonm, on Oct 31 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

I really do wonder what makes people think the way they do - is it hubris, confidence, or idiocy that leads to repetition of past failures?

Winston, I have the same problem. I think matters through carefully and explain to everyone what the correct conclusions are, and still there are those who disagree with me! Idiocy and hubris certainly, but there must be more. I am thinking demonic possession.

I know exactly what you mean, Ken.
(From about 0:45)

Rik

The forum posters could have a group sing. I have always thought that to be a great song.

[Winstonm]

Lobowolf, on Nov 1 2009, 10:46 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Oct 31 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

I really do wonder what makes people think the way they do - is it hubris, confidence, or idiocy that leads to repetition of past failures?

You mean in general, or just with respect to this?

Actually, I was thinking about the conversation I had with my brother, who seems to believe that the U.S. will have more success in Afghanistan than did the Soviets if only we listen to our military leaders and give them what they need to complete the mission.

The oddity to me is that he points to Vietnam as his reasoning - that if only the politicians had allowed the military to run the war we would have won in Vietnam.

[PassedOut]

Winstonm, on Nov 1 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

The oddity to me is that he points to Vietnam as his reasoning - that if only the politicians had allowed the military to run the war we would have won in Vietnam.

Does he explain what "won in Vietnam" would actually have meant? (I think Obama/McChrystal must explain what "won in Afghanistan" would mean also.)

[kenberg]

Family gatherings must be exciting!

We are hosting Thanksgiving this year. As hosts, it is our responsibility to provide dueling pistols to any family members or other guests who have a need for them.

[kenberg]

PassedOut, on Nov 1 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Nov 1 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

The oddity to me is that he points to Vietnam as his reasoning - that if only the politicians had allowed the military to run the war we would have won in Vietnam.

Does he explain what "won in Vietnam" would actually have meant? (I think Obama/McChrystal must explain what "won in Afghanistan" would mean also.)

And I think, even more, what the whole long term goals and strategy are. Whatever one thought of MAD and SDI, I understood the intent: If they blew us to smthereens, our last act on Earth would be to return the favor. Here I see no end. The model that occurs to me is not so much the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan but rather the Isreali situation in the middle east. It's tough to see how it will ever end.

Far from hubris, I feel humbled, though I guess not silenced, by my lack of understanding. I do not think any approach is the obviously correct one. I don't see how we can hope to succeed playing the Lone Ranger, it's just too big a muddle. I have little enthusiasm for telling our friends that we have changed our minds, sorry about that, we are now going home to fortress America. Staying there, but giving Mccrystal less than what he says he needs, seems to me to be the worst option.

We desperately need some clearly articulated approach, grounded in realism, explaining what we reasonably think can be done, and what cannot, how we will do it, and what we envision for a time when we will not be killing and getting killed in the region. If that is what comes out of this long reflection of Obama, we can be very grateful. I have my doubts.

[blackshoe]

Two quotes from Sun Tzu:

"The Emperor should tell the General when to fight, and who to fight. He should leave to the General the questions of where to fight and how to fight."

"What is essential in war is victory, not prolonged operations."

[jdonn]

Winstonm, on Oct 31 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

I really do wonder what makes people think the way they do - is it hubris, confidence, or idiocy that leads to repetition of past failures?

I don't know the intermediate step, but I'm sure it starts with power.

Power --> ? (hubris/confidence/idiocy) --> Acting the way we do

[Al_U_Card]

Power is the lure that attracts the ego with its promise of control.

The ego, in it's innate insecurity, is willing to cede control of it's local environment so that it can "strengthen" it's hold on it's perceptions. It fails to realize that it's perceptions are subjective in nature and personal in orientation. What results is invariably chaos when all of the disparate perspectives of those involved come crashing together.

Walk a mile in his shoes refers to the sharing of presences and the appreciation of the synergy that a commonality can provide. When you control, you get what you have (and can hold onto...) when you share, you have access to everything that is present.

[Winstonm]

Yes, the illusion that control is possible seems the common motivation.

[Winstonm]

PassedOut, on Nov 1 2009, 11:46 AM, said:

Winstonm, on Nov 1 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

The oddity to me is that he points to Vietnam as his reasoning - that if only the politicians had allowed the military to run the war we would have won in Vietnam.

Does he explain what "won in Vietnam" would actually have meant? (I think Obama/McChrystal must explain what "won in Afghanistan" would mean also.)

He has never said specifically but the concept I get second-hand is that a military victory = forcing the other side to stop fighting.