[Fluffy]

MPs, Both vulnerable

♠A
♥AK8653
♦J5
♣K1064


1♥-(1♠)-2♦-(4♠)
...


2♦= nat 10+ 1 round forcing.

[Jlall]

Double

[cherdanno]

Ok I have extras, but don't know what to do. That's what double says.

[pooltuna]

Fluffy, on Oct 29 2009, 07:59 PM, said:

MPs, Both vulnerable

♠A
♥AK8653
♦J5
♣K1064


1♥-(1♠)-2♦-(4♠)
...


2♦= nat 10+ 1 round forcing.

Double, The clowns I usually end up getting as partners either never play forcing pass or don't consider this a forcing pass auction so I will try to get what I can.

[Cascade]

Double takeout.

[Phil]

cherdanno, on Oct 29 2009, 08:45 PM, said:

Ok I have extras, but don't know what to do. That's what double says.

Ditto.

Usually partner doesnt know what do either however.

[dellache]

Double.

[gnasher]

Agree with everyone, unless it's a forcing-pass situation.

[Fluffy]

damnit I should had suposed on the forum everyoone would play take our double hehe.

With my partner at that time it would most ikelly been penalty though.

[Codo]

So after this hand you decided to switch to the good guys and play take out here?

I would double no matter how partner takes it...

[Fluffy]

hehe, If I put the same poll with spades and clubs switched I bet I would get over 70% doubles as well

[Jlall]

Fluffy, on Oct 30 2009, 05:14 AM, said:

hehe, If I put the same poll with spades and clubs switched I bet I would get over 70% doubles as well

The same hand with spades and clubs switched is infinitely less likely on this auction. I definitely would pass if I happened to have that hand without fears, partner must be a huge favorite to have a spade void in which case he will do something.

To me this is the equivalent of saying "If I posted KQJT9 xxx xxx xx I'm sure everyone would X a 4S opener." That hand has yet to come up for me in my life when they open 4S, and I like my chances on partner reopening X when I get it anyways. Meanwhile a good hand with short spades comes up all the time, and being forced to make a committal 4N bid with that type of hand would really suck. It's a game of percentages. Penalty doubles when you don't have any other way to show a good hand and they have bid and raised to a high level are just not good.

[bill1157]

4NT, whatever that may mean.

Bill

[P_Marlowe]

X, ..., and this is not for t/o.

I have 3-4 tricks, p made a 1 round force, p denied
a hearts fit, where do I wanna go?

Seems, I find myself again to be on the darkside.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gwnn]

p denied a heart fit? when?

[P_Marlowe]

gwnn, on Oct 30 2009, 08:07 AM, said:

p denied a heart fit? when?

..., at least in my partnership, this makes life easier.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[nick_s]

I sense a learning opportunity here

I thought this was a forcing pass auction because partner made a forcing response at the 2-level. I don't have a penalty double but I have extra values and don't know what to do so I pass the decision around to partner.

Evidently, that's not the current thinking. It seems like expert opinion (here anyway) now plays double as takeout.

Is this accurate? If so, would someone please explain why the thinking about the meaning of a double changed? (And is this still a forcing pass auction?)

Thanks

[P_Marlowe]

nick_s, on Oct 30 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

I sense a learning opportunity here

I thought this was a forcing pass auction because partner made a forcing response at the 2-level.  I don't have a penalty double but I have extra values and don't know what to do so I pass the decision around to partner.

Evidently, that's not the current thinking.  It seems like expert opinion (here anyway) now plays double as takeout.

Is this accurate? If so, would someone please explain why the thinking about the meaning of a double changed? (And is this still a forcing pass auction?)

Thanks

An agressive FP agreement is to play FP in seq., where one side opened
and the other made a inv.+ response.
To play this rule is certainly not mainstream.
This rule would not apply in the current situation, because 2D was only
a one round force.

Nevertheless it is certainly playable, that a 1 round forcing 2/1 response
does setup a FP for the 4 level or higher (maybe above 4 of openers suit).

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pooltuna]

P_Marlowe, on Oct 30 2009, 09:49 AM, said:

nick_s, on Oct 30 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

I sense a learning opportunity here

I thought this was a forcing pass auction because partner made a forcing response at the 2-level.  I don't have a penalty double but I have extra values and don't know what to do so I pass the decision around to partner.

Evidently, that's not the current thinking.  It seems like expert opinion (here anyway) now plays double as takeout.

Is this accurate? If so, would someone please explain why the thinking about the meaning of a double changed? (And is this still a forcing pass auction?)

Thanks

An agressive FP agreement is to play FP in seq., where one side opened
and the other made a inv.+ response.
To play this rule is certainly not mainstream.
This rule would not apply in the current situation, because 2D was only
a one round force.

Nevertheless it is certainly playable, that a 1 round forcing 2/1 response
does setup a FP for the 4 level or higher (maybe above 4 of openers suit).

With kind regards
Marlowe

I suspect it is probably good to kill FP on the LR calls as the variability of strength for these due to fit is too great to risk one.

[Jlall]

nick_s, on Oct 30 2009, 09:36 AM, said:

I sense a learning opportunity here

I thought this was a forcing pass auction because partner made a forcing response at the 2-level. I don't have a penalty double but I have extra values and don't know what to do so I pass the decision around to partner.

Evidently, that's not the current thinking. It seems like expert opinion (here anyway) now plays double as takeout.

Is this accurate? If so, would someone please explain why the thinking about the meaning of a double changed? (And is this still a forcing pass auction?)

Thanks

You are right, the key is whether or not a pass is forcing.

In forcing pass auctions, doubles say "please stop bidding" and tend to include defensive values and hands lacking a fit. If this was a forcing pass auction, we would have a perfect pass saying "it's up to you pard."

In non forcing pass auctions, doubles just say "I have extra values. If you want to bid something please do so." This means you have to pass sometimes when you're loaded in their suit because you don't want partner to bid anything, a small price to pay.

IMO 2D does not create a forcing pass at a high level.