[bd71]

So my partner and I realized that although we ostensibly play New Minor Forcing, we don't have well-defined and agreed responses after the 2m bid. This further led to my further realization that I don't have a perfect understanding of what the openers possible hand patterns are after these bidding sequences.

Would appreciate folks (but particularly the experts) comments on this inventory of possible hand patterns for different sequences. In each case, I have categorized them on whether they are possible hand patterns for that sequence (Definitely, Maybe, Probably Not), and have included some questions along the way.

1C-1H-1N
Definitely: 3334, 3325, 3235, 2335
Maybe: 3244, 2344 (Should these open 1D always?)
Probably Not: 2245, 1345 (Should these open 1D always? Is 1N even the appropriate rebid, or should you always bid 2C whether it's the 2nd suit shown or a rebid of clubs?)

1C-1S-1N
Definitely: 3424, 3334, 2434, 3325, 2425, 3235, 2335
Maybe: 3244, 2344 (Always open 1D?)...1444, 1435, 1345 (Is 1N rebid right with singleton in partner's suit?)
Probably Not: 2245 (Open 1D always? Is 1N even the right rebid?)

1D-1H-1N
Definitely: 3352, 3343, 3253, 2353, 3244, 2344

1D-1S-1N
Definitely: 3442, 3352, 2452, 3343, 2443, 3253, 2353, 3244, 2344
Maybe: 1453, 1444 (Is 1N rebid right with singleton in partner's suit?)

1H-1S-1N
Definitely: 3532, 3523, 2533

Question being saved for later...should we scrap NMF and just use Checkback? So if you have an opinion on this, please wait and I'll start another thread on it. Either way, I want to have solid understanding of these hand patterns before getting to that.

[awm]

Obviously this is a matter of partnership agreement. Here's my style when I play standard or 2/1:

Usually open 1♦ with 4-4 in the minors. Occasionally I will make an exception if the diamonds are quite weak and the clubs are strong (so it's sort of "better minor" but I open 1♦ if it's at all close). However, (32)44 is a possible 1♣-1M-1NT shape.

Always open 1♣ with 4-5 in the minors. I don't want partner taking preference to my shorter suit, and I want partner to be able to raise diamonds with three on the sequence 1♦-1M-2♣-3♦. This also helps to find major suit fits when responder is 5-4 or 5-5 in the majors (since I am often bidding 1♣-1♠-1N or 1♣-1♠-2♣ where introducing hearts is easy; compare this to 1♦-1♠-2♣ where bidding hearts would now be fourth suit forcing and show a much better hand).

After 1m-1M, I will often rebid 1NT with a singleton in partner's major. This includes the obvious problem hands (1453, 1435) as well as the problem hands "created" by opening 1♣ with both minors (1345, 3145). It also includes hands that are not an obvious problem, such as 1444 and even 1354/3154 with a strong three-card holding in the unbid major. I will also rebid 1NT with 15(43) shapes after 1♥-1♠ if my three-card suit is strong and my heart suit is not so great, since rebidding 2m often means reaching a 5-2 heart fit (and makes it virtually impossible to play in the fourth suit).

It may be worth mentioning that I often raise responder's major on three-card support. This includes balanced hands with a small doubleton somewhere, and means that I don't expect responder to rebid a bad five-card major on a minimum after 1m-1M-1NT. My style also means that 1m-1M-2m is almost always six (or rarely five with extra values with a hand "in between" 1NT and a reverse).

For me the shapes are:

1♣-1♥-1N: 3334, 3235, 3244 with very strong clubs, 2245, 3145. 2344/3325/2335 possible if the doubleton includes an honor.

1♣-1♠-1N: 3334, 2335, 2434, 1345, 1435, 2425, 2245, 2344 with very strong clubs. Again 3244/3424/3325/3235 are possible if the doubleton includes an honor.

1♦-1♥-1N: 3343, 3253, 3244. 2344/2353/3352 possible if the doubleton includes an honor. Possibly 3154/2254 if the spade holding contains two honors.

1♦-1♠-1N: 3343, 2353, 2344, 2443, 1453, 1444, 2452. 3244/3442/3352/3253 possible if the doubleton includes an honor. Possibly 1354/2254 if the heart holding contains two honors.

1♥-1♠-1N: 2533. 3523/3532 possible if the doubleton includes an honor. Possibly 1543/1534 if the three-card minor contains an honor and the hearts are weak. Possibly 2524/2542 if the doubleton contains two honors and the hearts are weak.

[Mbodell]

bd71, on Oct 29 2009, 01:49 AM, said:

Question being saved for later...should we scrap NMF and just use Checkback? So if you have an opinion on this, please wait and I'll start another thread on it. Either way, I want to have solid understanding of these hand patterns before getting to that.

I'm not sure you should completely divorce these as completely as you are doing. What bids you can make in the future influence what bids you make in the past. If you play 2-way new minor force when 2♣ forces 2♦ then responder can skip really long diamonds with weak hands even clearer, and know that they can sign off in 2♦ over 1nt. If you have ways to do game forcing and game invitational hands it influences other auctions. For instance, what does responder have in the following auction 1♣-1♠-1nt-2♥? Playing 2-way nmf with one of my partners we could have 44 in the majors as this is the only way to show that as a sign off, so the 1♠ bid doesn't promise ♠ longer than ♥ and the 2♥ bid doesn't show a 5th spade.

I realize above I'm talking about responder, but the similar issues apply to opener. For instance, I don't bid 1♠ with a 4 card suit over 1x-1y when I have a "nt-shape" and the point range for a 1nt response when I'm playing 2-way nmf. When I'm playing all natural, I often do. So what patterns I can have for 1x-1y-1nt are different depending on the possible continuations.

[bd71]

Excellent response...thanks. Was worried I dove too far in the weeds and wasn't going to get any feedback.

For the hands where you require yourself to have an honor-doubleton (in suit not bid by partner) for the NT rebid, what are your options if you don't have an honor? For example, how do you bid a 12-14 3325 hand with a weak doubleton after partner responds in a major?

[awm]

bd71, on Oct 29 2009, 09:08 PM, said:

For the hands where you require yourself to have an honor-doubleton (in suit not bid by partner) for the NT rebid, what are your options if you don't have an honor? For example, how do you bid a 12-14 3325 hand with a weak doubleton after partner responds in a major?

awm said:

It may be worth mentioning that I often raise responder's major on three-card support. This includes balanced hands with a small doubleton somewhere

I'd raise partner's major. There are pluses and minuses to this; in particular I will often reach better partials when responder has four good cards in the major or five bad cards in the major. On the other hand, it reaches a worse partials when responder has a weak four card suit.